[arin-ppml] Tenfold fee increases?

[Michael B. Williams]

Agree entirely and well said, Fernando.

Michael

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 10:37 Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:

> If there are not enough incentives already let's create more then. We, as
> a community in a bottom up process as responsible for creating them based
> on what is right and fair to most people.
>
> Use the excuse that the broker market is happing is not enough to try
> pretend things like leasing is a correct thing. It is not and will never
> be, despite the need some may have. It is fundamentally wrong allow assign
> addresses to those who can pay more rather than necessarily to those who
> justify for them.
>
> We, as a community can adjust the rules in order to create more incentives
> for unused spaces to be returned to ARIN so it can reassign to those who
> really justify and will use them to build real Internet, based on fair and
> neutral rules not just to speculate and profit from it.
> We can have all the basis to support ARIN legally to revoke unused space
> that to be returned therefore if it is not in use (being leased for
> example) then it must be returned.
>
> Doesn't matter if that ended up happing here and there. If that is morally
> wrong, a distrotion to the system and should not been done then any
> necessary policy to support ARIN to revoke addresses where necessary and
> reassign to those who really justify should be created for that.
> We cannot prentend that is fine just because some a minority still beleive
> it should be allowed to profit from something someone doesn't own and that
> is in need for others to fulfil its main propose and build Internet.
>
> Fernando
>
> On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, 20:12 Matt Harris, <matt at netfire.net> wrote:
>
>> Matt Harris​
>> VP OF INFRASTRUCTURE
>>
>> *Follow us on LinkedIn!* <https://www.linkedin.com/company/netfirecloud/>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/netfirecloud/>
>> *matt.harris at netfire.net* <matt.harris at netfire.net>
>> *816-256-5446* <816-256-5446>
>> *www.netfire.com* <https://www.netfire.com/>
>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:15 AM Bill Woodcock <woody at pch.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Removing the program, with its criteria and fees, would not stop the
>>> practice.  I will be the first to admit that, when I was on the ARIN board,
>>> I was completely against commercial brokerage of IP addresses, as a matter
>>> of principle.  I believed that IP addresses, when no longer needed, should
>>> be returned to the RIR for redistribution as needed.  Like phone numbers,
>>> for instance.  Now, however, I believe that there is a reasonable market
>>> niche for a few brokers, and that ARIN keeping a check on bad behavior in
>>> that space is valuable.
>>>
>>>                                 -Bill
>>>
>>
>> Hey folks,
>> I think we're missing a lot here. The incentives to return unused
>> resources are extremely small. There is a much greater incentives to sell
>> or lease the space. If selling the space outright by transferring it -
>> often through a broker - were no longer an option, most organizations would
>> simply sit on it or would lease it out, the latter situation is more useful
>> to spammers and others who use space on a temporary and not permanent or
>> semi-permanent basis, and increased competition from those who cannot sell
>> the space would drive prices down for leasing: this is very good for
>> spammers and other bad actors who will simply walk away from addresses when
>> the lease is up and they are burned by blacklists, and very bad for
>> legitimate service providers of all sorts who need space that they intend
>> to be decent stewards of.
>>
>> I'd also love to see IPv4 deprecated and just move to a 100% v6 native
>> internet. I've contributed to efforts to do that in what little ways are
>> possible, like making sure my customers have IPv6 implemented properly,
>> sharing information about it and about various events over the past decade
>> or so, etc. But we're still not there, and in reality, we're still not
>> close. IPv4 is a necessity, whether we like that fact or not.
>>
>> So understanding those two points, I don't see why increasing fees on
>> facilitators such that it is not a big deal for the largest players, but
>> pushes smaller competitors out of the market, benefits anyone really.
>> Having increased competition almost always benefits a market as a general
>> rule, and $10,000 can be a lot for an organization that is just getting
>> started or, that performs this role as a secondary business rather than
>> their primary one. So for those reasons, my feeling is that Tom's grievance
>> is legitimate, and these sorts of discussions should indeed be discussions
>> we have prior to changes to these fee schedules and policies being made.
>>
>> - mdh
>>
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