[arin-ppml] Tenfold fee increases?

Sat Jun 3 15:36:11 EDT 2023

If there are not enough incentives already let's create more then. We, as a
community in a bottom up process as responsible for creating them based on
what is right and fair to most people.

Use the excuse that the broker market is happing is not enough to try
pretend things like leasing is a correct thing. It is not and will never
be, despite the need some may have. It is fundamentally wrong allow assign
addresses to those who can pay more rather than necessarily to those who
justify for them.

We, as a community can adjust the rules in order to create more incentives
for unused spaces to be returned to ARIN so it can reassign to those who
really justify and will use them to build real Internet, based on fair and
neutral rules not just to speculate and profit from it.
We can have all the basis to support ARIN legally to revoke unused space
that to be returned therefore if it is not in use (being leased for
example) then it must be returned.

Doesn't matter if that ended up happing here and there. If that is morally
wrong, a distrotion to the system and should not been done then any
necessary policy to support ARIN to revoke addresses where necessary and
reassign to those who really justify should be created for that.
We cannot prentend that is fine just because some a minority still beleive
it should be allowed to profit from something someone doesn't own and that
is in need for others to fulfil its main propose and build Internet.

Fernando

On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, 20:12 Matt Harris, <matt at netfire.net> wrote:

> Matt Harris
> VP OF INFRASTRUCTURE
>
> *Follow us on LinkedIn!* <https://www.linkedin.com/company/netfirecloud/>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/netfirecloud/>
> *matt.harris at netfire.net* <matt.harris at netfire.net>
> *816-256-5446* <816-256-5446>
> *www.netfire.com* <https://www.netfire.com/>
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:15 AM Bill Woodcock <woody at pch.net> wrote:
>
>> Removing the program, with its criteria and fees, would not stop the
>> practice.  I will be the first to admit that, when I was on the ARIN board,
>> I was completely against commercial brokerage of IP addresses, as a matter
>> of principle.  I believed that IP addresses, when no longer needed, should
>> be returned to the RIR for redistribution as needed.  Like phone numbers,
>> for instance.  Now, however, I believe that there is a reasonable market
>> niche for a few brokers, and that ARIN keeping a check on bad behavior in
>> that space is valuable.
>>
>>                                 -Bill
>>
>
> Hey folks,
> I think we're missing a lot here. The incentives to return unused
> resources are extremely small. There is a much greater incentives to sell
> or lease the space. If selling the space outright by transferring it -
> often through a broker - were no longer an option, most organizations would
> simply sit on it or would lease it out, the latter situation is more useful
> to spammers and others who use space on a temporary and not permanent or
> semi-permanent basis, and increased competition from those who cannot sell
> the space would drive prices down for leasing: this is very good for
> spammers and other bad actors who will simply walk away from addresses when
> the lease is up and they are burned by blacklists, and very bad for
> legitimate service providers of all sorts who need space that they intend
> to be decent stewards of.
>
> I'd also love to see IPv4 deprecated and just move to a 100% v6 native
> internet. I've contributed to efforts to do that in what little ways are
> possible, like making sure my customers have IPv6 implemented properly,
> sharing information about it and about various events over the past decade
> or so, etc. But we're still not there, and in reality, we're still not
> close. IPv4 is a necessity, whether we like that fact or not.
>
> So understanding those two points, I don't see why increasing fees on
> facilitators such that it is not a big deal for the largest players, but
> pushes smaller competitors out of the market, benefits anyone really.
> Having increased competition almost always benefits a market as a general
> rule, and $10,000 can be a lot for an organization that is just getting
> started or, that performs this role as a secondary business rather than
> their primary one. So for those reasons, my feeling is that Tom's grievance
> is legitimate, and these sorts of discussions should indeed be discussions
> we have prior to changes to these fee schedules and policies being made.
>
> - mdh
>
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