<div><div dir="auto">Agree entirely and well said, Fernando.</div></div><div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Michael </div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 10:37 Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">If there are not enough incentives already let's create more then. We, as a community in a bottom up process as responsible for creating them based on what is right and fair to most people.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Use the excuse that the broker market is happing is not enough to try pretend things like leasing is a correct thing. It is not and will never be, despite the need some may have. It is fundamentally wrong allow assign addresses to those who can pay more rather than necessarily to those who justify for them.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">We, as a community can adjust the rules in order to create more incentives for unused spaces to be returned to ARIN so it can reassign to those who really justify and will use them to build real Internet, based on fair and neutral rules not just to speculate and profit from it.</div><div dir="auto">We can have all the basis to support ARIN legally to revoke unused space that to be returned therefore if it is not in use (being leased for example) then it must be returned.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Doesn't matter if that ended up happing here and there. If that is morally wrong, a distrotion to the system and should not been done then any necessary policy to support ARIN to revoke addresses where necessary and reassign to those who really justify should be created for that.</div><div dir="auto">We cannot prentend that is fine just because some a minority still beleive it should be allowed to profit from something someone doesn't own and that is in need for others to fulfil its main propose and build Internet.</div></div></div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Fernando</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, 20:12 Matt Harris, <<a href="mailto:matt@netfire.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">matt@netfire.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:1px;direction:ltr"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="width:100%;font-size:1px"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="font-size:0"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:10px 0 0;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="font-size:0"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:0;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="font-size:0;line-height:normal"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:0 0 15px;vertical-align:top"><img border="0" alt="" style="font-size:0"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:10px;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="width:100%;font-size:0;line-height:normal"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:0;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" 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style="white-space:nowrap;color:#576576;font-size:12px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;text-align:center"><tbody><tr style="font-size:12px"><td style="font-family:Arial"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/netfirecloud/" id="m_-4255678824608608638m_7463765015651599540m_3444271791349045959m_1300451030398959128LPlnk689713" title="Our LinkedIn Profile" style="text-decoration:none;color:#1d1e2f" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong style="font-weight:700">Follow us on LinkedIn!<br></strong></a></td></tr></tbody></table></td><td align="left" style="padding:0 0 0 10px;vertical-align:top"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/netfirecloud/" id="m_-4255678824608608638m_7463765015651599540m_3444271791349045959m_1300451030398959128LPlnk689713" style="text-decoration:none" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/KhTz3zg.png" width="26" border="0" alt="" style="width:26px;min-width:26px;max-width:26px;font-size:0"></a></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding:0;vertical-align:middle"><img height="50" border="0" alt="" style="height:50px;min-height:50px;max-height:50px;font-size:0"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:10px 0;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="width:100%;font-size:0"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:10px;border-top:solid 1px #dadadc;border-right:none;border-bottom:solid 1px #dadadc;border-left:none;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="width:100%;font-size:0"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:0;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="font-size:0"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:0 20px 0 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style="padding:0 20px 0 0;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="font-size:0;line-height:normal"><tbody><tr style="font-size:0"><td align="left" style="padding:0;vertical-align:top"><img height="28" border="0" alt="" style="height:28px;min-height:28px;max-height:28px;font-size:0"></td><td align="left" style="padding:0 0 0 10px;vertical-align:middle"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="font-size:0;color:#2b2b2b;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;white-space:nowrap"><tbody><tr style="font-size:13px"><td align="left" style="padding:3px 0;vertical-align:middle;font-family:Arial"><span dir="ltr" style="direction:ltr"><a href="tel:816-256-5446" id="m_-4255678824608608638m_7463765015651599540m_3444271791349045959m_1300451030398959128LPlnk689713" style="text-decoration:none;color:#2b2b2b" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong style="font-weight:400">816-256-5446</strong></a></span></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td><td align="left" style="padding:0;vertical-align:top"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" style="font-size:0;color:#576576;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;line-height:normal;white-space:nowrap"><tbody><tr style="font-size:13px"><td align="left" style="padding:0;vertical-align:top;font-size:0"><img height="28" border="0" alt="" style="height:28px;min-height:28px;max-height:28px;font-size:0"></td><td align="left" style="padding:0 0 0 10px;vertical-align:middle;font-family:Arial"><a href="https://www.netfire.com/" id="m_-4255678824608608638m_7463765015651599540m_3444271791349045959m_1300451030398959128LPlnk689713" style="text-decoration:none;color:#2b2b2b" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong style="font-weight:400">www.netfire.com</strong></a></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></div>On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:15 AM Bill Woodcock <<a href="mailto:woody@pch.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">woody@pch.net</a>> wrote:<br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Removing the program, with its criteria and fees, would not stop the practice. I will be the first to admit that, when I was on the ARIN board, I was completely against commercial brokerage of IP addresses, as a matter of principle. I believed that IP addresses, when no longer needed, should be returned to the RIR for redistribution as needed. Like phone numbers, for instance. Now, however, I believe that there is a reasonable market niche for a few brokers, and that ARIN keeping a check on bad behavior in that space is valuable.<br>
<br>
-Bill<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hey folks,<div>I think we're missing a lot here. The incentives to return unused resources are extremely small. There is a much greater incentives to sell or lease the space. If selling the space outright by transferring it - often through a broker - were no longer an option, most organizations would simply sit on it or would lease it out, the latter situation is more useful to spammers and others who use space on a temporary and not permanent or semi-permanent basis, and increased competition from those who cannot sell the space would drive prices down for leasing: this is very good for spammers and other bad actors who will simply walk away from addresses when the lease is up and they are burned by blacklists, and very bad for legitimate service providers of all sorts who need space that they intend to be decent stewards of. </div><div><br></div><div>I'd also love to see IPv4 deprecated and just move to a 100% v6 native internet. I've contributed to efforts to do that in what little ways are possible, like making sure my customers have IPv6 implemented properly, sharing information about it and about various events over the past decade or so, etc. But we're still not there, and in reality, we're still not close. IPv4 is a necessity, whether we like that fact or not. </div><div><br></div><div>So understanding those two points, I don't see why increasing fees on facilitators such that it is not a big deal for the largest players, but pushes smaller competitors out of the market, benefits anyone really. Having increased competition almost always benefits a market as a general rule, and $10,000 can be a lot for an organization that is just getting started or, that performs this role as a secondary business rather than their primary one. So for those reasons, my feeling is that Tom's grievance is legitimate, and these sorts of discussions should indeed be discussions we have prior to changes to these fee schedules and policies being made. </div><div><br></div><div>- mdh</div></div><div><br></div></div></div>
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