[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Kelvin Williams
kwilliams at altuscgi.com
Tue Jul 21 23:00:30 EDT 2009
Sure. Ok. I'm on that immediately. Their security risks alone justify such an action.
Unfortunately the bean counters down the hall, and the guys up on "Mahogany Row" wouldn't quite understand.
I will implement this tomorrow. You hiring??
Kelvin Williams
Altus Communications Group, Inc.
Office Direct: 678.369.5968
Office Main: 678.369.5970
Fax: 866.895.8557
Mobile: 678.852.4173
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
-----Original Message-----
From: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:57:32
To: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>; Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com>; Tony Valenti<tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Stop enabling them :)
On 7/21/09 8:56 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com> wrote:
> I concur.
>
> But tell that to my Win98 subscribers who refuse to upgrade because their
> Internet works just fine.
> Kelvin Williams
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> Office Main: 678.369.5970
> Fax: 866.895.8557
> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Gotstein <chris at uplogon.com>
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:53:11
> To: Tony Valenti<tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
> Cc: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>; John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>;
> <arin-discuss at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>
>
> Pure IPv6 isn't going to happen overnight, but running dual stack can
> happen now. The more IPv6 we can get out there the better.
>
> --
> Chris Gotstein
> Sr Network Engineer
> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
> 500 N Stephenson Ave
> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
> Phone: 906-774-4847
> Fax: 906-774-0335
> chris at uplogon.com
>
> Tony Valenti wrote:
>> > I'm in Omaha, Nebraska.
>> >
>> > The big thing to us is that as a content provider, we have to serve our
>> > content on a network that is compatible with our customers. If we went
>> > IPV6 on our gear, we'd go out of business because all our customers
>> > would find a content provider who would serve it on IPs that they could
>> > access.
>> >
>> > It is a lot easier to find a new webhost than it is to change ISPs.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Kelvin Williams <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
>> > <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Net-Neutrality is something I fully support. The previous example
>> > was just saying, if ARIN can't help us little guys, we can band
>> > together and help ourselves.
>> >
>> > Kelvin Williams
>> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>> > Fax: 866.895.8557
>> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>> >
>> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From*: John Brown
>> > *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:39:24 -0600
>> > *To*: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>>;
>> > Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>>
>> >
>> > *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>> >
>> > Hang on, I need to scream NET-NEUTRALITY.
>> >
>> > Ah, but market forces will keep you from adding those ACL¹s. Your
>> > customers will find another provider that is ACL free and then you
>> > will be revenue free. :)
>> >
>> >
>> > On 7/21/09 8:30 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
>> > <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they
>> > (Apple, et al) don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they
>> > don't have a legal right when we add ACLs blocking their traffic
>> > from traversing our networks. ;)Kw
>> >
>> > Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:
>> > 678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile:
>> > 678.852.4173Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From*: John Brown
>> > *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02 -0600
>> > *To*: Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com
>> > <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>>; <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
>> > <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>>
>> > *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> accountability.
>> > I¹ll ask the age old question again.
>> >
>> > What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?
>> > If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different
>> > then, what gives ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.
>> >
>> > Its contracts law.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com
>> > <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point
>> > where the big
>> > guys are holding available IP address space over our heads
>> > for a fee.
>> > Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with
>> > every small ISP
>> > that comes along asking for address space.
>> >
>> > We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP
>> > space and also
>> > requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both
>> > attempts
>> > because we could prove we needed the space. We also have
>> > an IPv6 block
>> > and already have it implemented on our routers. But at
>> > this time, the
>> > only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us
>> > running pure
>> > IPv6 for a long time to come.
>> >
>> > ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,
>> > mostly unused
>> > blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a
>> > good start, or
>> > maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from
>> > each of these
>> > companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block
>> > holders of address
>> > space on justification, why can't they do the same on these
>> > large
>> > blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or
>> > more of their
>> > block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then
>> > they should
>> > break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Chris Gotstein
>> > Sr Network Engineer
>> > UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>> > 500 N Stephenson Ave
>> > Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>> > Phone: 906-774-4847
>> > Fax: 906-774-0335
>> > chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>
>> >
>> > Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>> > > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>> > >
>>> > > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion
>> > of IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB
>> > DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>>> > >
>>> > > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy
>> > subscribers running Linux or current versions of Windows
>> > that support IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were
>> > running IPv6.
>>> > >
>>> > > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT
>> > can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,
>> > etc) in use today.
>>> > >
>>> > > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are
>> > protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and
>> > paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8
>> > holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks
>> > they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>> > >
>>> > > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per
>> > IPv4 address because they can go for that.
>>> > >
>>> > > I think instead of talking on these lists that there
>> > should be a steering group developed to address the real
>> > issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW
>> > freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In
>> > my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
>> > networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can
>> > transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users
>> > still running Windows 98.
>>> > >
>>> > > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks
>> > to the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues
>> > without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to
>> > create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>>> > >
>>> > > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the
>> > local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made
>> > sense to us)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Kw
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Kelvin Williams
>>> > > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>> > > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>> > > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>> > > Fax: 866.895.8557
>>> > > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > -----Original Message-----
>>> > > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net
>> > <mailto:tedm at ipinc.net>>
>>> > >
>>> > > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>> > > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com
>> > <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>>
>>> > > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net
>> > <mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>>
>>> > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> > accountability.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely
>> > liking to have
>>> > > some), then a transfer market will
>>> > > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will
>> > suddenly
>>> > > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple
>> > continue to sit
>>> > > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than
>> > charging them
>>> > > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.
>> > Either way,
>>> > > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the
>> > money they lose.
>>> > >
>>> > > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market
>> > never forms
>>> > > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which
>> > case nobody will
>>> > > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>> > >
>>> > > Either way, it works the same.
>>> > >
>>> > > Ted
>>> > >
>>> > > John Brown wrote:
>>>> > >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they
>> > have to assess a
>>>> > >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's
>> > there was no fee as
>>>> > >> part of the "contract".
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> > >>> From: Steve Wagner
>>>>> [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>>>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>> > >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>> > >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> > accountability.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a
NAT
>>>>> > >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak
>> > about,
>>>>> > >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type
of
>>>>> > >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in
them
>>>>> > >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool.
This
>>>>> > >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well
>> > that uses
>>>>> > >>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Regards,
>>>>> > >>> Steve Wagner
>>>>> > >>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>> > >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>> > >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>> > >>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>> > >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>> > >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>> > >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>> > >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>> > >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>> > <mailto:Stwagner at syringanetworks.net>
>>>>> > >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>> > <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>>>>> > >>> The information in this message is intended for the
named
>>>>> > >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is
>>>>> > >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
>>>>> > >>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you
are
>>>>> > >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying,
distribution,
>>>>> > >>> or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents
of
>>>>> > >>> this message is strictly prohibited. If you have
received
>>>>> > >>> this e-mail in error, do not print it or disseminate it
or
>>>>> > >>> its contents. In such event, please notify the sender
by
>>>>> > >>> return e-mail and delete the e-mail file immediately
>>>>> > >>> thereafter. Thank you.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> > >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>> > <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
>>>>> > >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
>> > John Brown
>>>>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>> > >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> > accountability.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of
>> > managing
>>>>> > >>> the actual
>>>>> > >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space
>> > allocated or
>>>>> > >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers
>> > don't exist any
>>>>> > >>> more.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space
is
>>>>> > >>> higher than the
>>>>> > >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't
>> > happen. I could
>>>>> > >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting
>> > a public spot
>>>>> > >>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got
gobs of
>>>>> > >>> space should
>>>>> > >>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>> > >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
>> > addresses ??
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get
>> > space, I
>>>>> > >>> don't know.
>>>>> > >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a
>> > broad brush.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people
>> > doing
>>>>> > >>> good work
>>>>> > >>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>> > >>> request, I'm sure
>>>>> > >>> it can be resolved.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
>> > privately work
>>>>> > >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>> > >>> muster and what
>>>>> > >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>>> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> > >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>> > <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
>>>>>> > >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
>> > Mike Horwath
>>>>>> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>> > >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>> > >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> > accountability.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> Hi.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out
of
>>>>>> > >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going
on for
>>>>>> > >>>> way too long.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that
I
>>>>>> > >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years
>> > later, same
>>>>>> > >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to
>> > share the pool.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the
mid/late-1990s
>>>>>> > >>>> when it was posed that
>> > companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>> > >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>> > >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am
>> > sure you
>>>>>> > >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys
who
>> > have
>>>>>> > >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on
their
>>>>>> > >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us
are the
>>>>>> > >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by
>> > about 20
>>>>>> > >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give
Away'
>>>>>> > >>>> stock offering.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
>> > companies: PROFIT
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing
>> > field
>>>>>> > >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It
>> > never has
>>>>>> > >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> --
>>>>>> > >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
>> > drechsau at iphouse.net <mailto:drechsau at iphouse.net>
>>>>>> > >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by
>> > whatever it is
>>>>>> > >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>> > >>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>> > >>>> You are receiving this message because you are
>> > subscribed to
>>>>>> > >>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List
>> > (ARIN-discuss at arin.net <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>).
>>>>>> > >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription
at:
>>>>>> > >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>> > >>>> Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net>
if
>> > you experience any issues.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>_______________________________________________
>>>>> > >>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>> > >>> You are receiving this message because you are
>> > subscribed to
>>>>> > >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> > <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>).
>>>>> > >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription
at:
>>>>> > >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>> > >>> Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if
>> > you experience any issues.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>_______________________________________________
>>>> > >> ARIN-Discuss
>>>> > >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed
to
>>>> > >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> > <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>).
>>>> > >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>> > >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>> > >> Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if
>> > you experience any issues.
>>> > >
>>> > >_______________________________________________
>>> > > ARIN-Discuss
>>> > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed
to
>>> > > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> > <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>).
>>> > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>> > > Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if
>> > you experience any issues.
>>> > >_______________________________________________
>>> > > ARIN-Discuss
>>> > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed
to
>>> > > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> > <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>).
>>> > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>> > > Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if
>> > you experience any issues.
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> > ARIN-Discuss
>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> > <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>).
>> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>> > Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if you
>> > experience any issues.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> > ARIN-Discuss
>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> > <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>).
>> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>> > Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if you
>> > experience any issues.
>> >
>> >
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-discuss/attachments/20090722/434a1107/attachment.html>
More information about the ARIN-discuss
mailing list