[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

Owen DeLong owen at delong.com
Wed Jul 22 02:34:06 EDT 2009


Noone is suggesting that anyone should go IPv6 only on content servers.

What is being suggested is that you go to dual-stack soon-ish so that  
when we
start seeing IPv6-only eye-balls due to IPv4 exhaustion, your web site  
is still
available to those IPv6-only users.

Owen

On Jul 21, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Tony Valenti wrote:

> I'm in Omaha, Nebraska.
>
> The big thing to us is that as a content provider, we have to serve  
> our content on a network that is compatible with our customers.  If  
> we went IPV6 on our gear, we'd go out of business because all our  
> customers would find a content provider who would serve it on IPs  
> that they could access.
>
> It is a lot easier to find a new webhost than it is to change ISPs.
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Kelvin Williams <kwilliams at altuscgi.com 
> > wrote:
> Net-Neutrality is something I fully support. The previous example  
> was just saying, if ARIN can't help us little guys, we can band  
> together and help ourselves.
>
> Kelvin Williams
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> Office Main: 678.369.5970
> Fax: 866.895.8557
> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
>
>
> From: John Brown
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:39:24 -0600
> To: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>; Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>
> Hang on, I need to scream NET-NEUTRALITY.
>
> Ah, but market forces will keep you from adding those ACL’s.  Your  
> customers will find another provider that is ACL free and then you  
> will be revenue free. :)
>
>
> On 7/21/09 8:30 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com> wrote:
>
> ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they  
> (Apple, et al) don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they  
> don't have a legal right when we add ACLs blocking their traffic  
> from traversing our networks. ;)Kw
>
> Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:  
> 678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile:  
> 678.852.4173Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
> From:  John Brown
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02 -0600
> To: Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com>; <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> I’ll ask the age old question again.
>
>  What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?  If  
> Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then,  
> what gives ARIN the ability to  enforce rules today.
>
>  Its contracts law.
>
>
>
>
>  On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>
> I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the  
> big
>  guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>  Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small  
> ISP
>  that comes along asking for address space.
>
>  We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and  
> also
>  requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both attempts
>  because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have an IPv6  
> block
>  and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at this time,  
> the
>  only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>  IPv6 for a long time to come.
>
>  ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly  
> unused
>  blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a good start,  
> or
>  maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of  
> these
>  companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of  
> address
>  space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>  blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>  block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then they  
> should
>  break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>
>
>  --
>  Chris Gotstein
>  Sr Network Engineer
>  UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>  500 N Stephenson Ave
>  Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>  Phone: 906-774-4847
>  Fax: 906-774-0335
>  chris at uplogon.com
>
>  Kelvin Williams wrote:
>  > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>  >
>  > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4.  
> Our Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL  
> subscribers.
>  >
>  > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers  
> running Linux or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and  
> the majority of web destinations were running IPv6.
>  >
>  > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can  
> cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use  
> today.
>  >
>  > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting  
> what blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block,  
> will now be at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a  
> tiny portion of the blocks they are assigned when the "transfer  
> market" comes into play.
>  >
>  > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4  
> address because they can go for that.
>  >
>  > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a  
> steering group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple,  
> HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If  
> they can't, they need to pay. In my opinion, especially when looking  
> at the DoD most of their networks aren't accessed by the general  
> public, so they can transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing  
> with users still running Windows 98.
>  >
>  > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the  
> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the  
> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of  
> large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>  >
>  > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local  
> brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>  >
>  >
>  > Kw
>  >
>  >
>  > Kelvin Williams
>  > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>  > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>  > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>  > Fax: 866.895.8557
>  > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>  >
>  > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>  >
>  > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>  > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>  > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>  > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to  
> have
>  > some), then a transfer market will
>  > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>  > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue  
> to sit
>  > on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than charging  
> them
>  > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.  Either way,
>  > they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the money they  
> lose.
>  >
>  > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>  > and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which case  
> nobody will
>  > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>  >
>  > Either way, it works the same.
>  >
>  > Ted
>  >
>  > John Brown wrote:
>  >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to  
> assess a
>  >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>  >>
>  >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no  
> fee as
>  >> part of the "contract".
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>> -----Original Message-----
>  >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>  >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>  >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>  >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>  >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4  
> accountability.
>  >>>
>  >>> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
>  >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>  >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>  >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>  >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>  >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>  >>> a NAT type firewall
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> Regards,
>  >>> Steve Wagner
>  >>> Vice President of Operations
>  >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>  >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>  >>> Boise, ID 83705
>  >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>  >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>  >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>  >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>  >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>  >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>  >>>
>  >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
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>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> -----Original Message-----
>  >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>  >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Brown
>  >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>  >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>  >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>  >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4  
> accountability.
>  >>>
>  >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>  >>> the actual
>  >>> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space  
> allocated or
>  >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't  
> exist any
>  >>> more.
>  >>>
>  >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>  >>> higher than the
>  >>> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't happen.  I  
> could
>  >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a  
> public spot
>  >>> light on those providers. :|
>  >>>
>  >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>  >>> space should
>  >>> return the space they aren't using.
>  >>>
>  >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>  >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>  >>>
>  >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>  >>>
>  >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>  >>> don't know.
>  >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad  
> brush.
>  >>>
>  >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>  >>> good work
>  >>> under the guidelines they have.
>  >>>
>  >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>  >>> request, I'm sure
>  >>> it can be resolved.
>  >>>
>  >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately  
> work
>  >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>  >>> muster and what
>  >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>  >>>
>  >>>> -----Original Message-----
>  >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>  >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>  >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>  >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>  >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>  >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4  
> accountability.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> Hi.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>  >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>  >>>> way too long.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>  >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years later, same
>  >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the  
> pool.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>  >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>  >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>  >>>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>  >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>  >>>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
>  >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
>  >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>  >>>>
>  >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>  >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>  >>>> stock offering.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:   
> PROFIT
>  >>>>
>  >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing field
>  >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It never has
>  >>>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>  >>>>
>  >>>> --
>  >>>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!       drechsau at iphouse.net
>  >>>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>  >>>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>  >>>>_______________________________________________
>  >>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>  >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>  >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>  >>>>
>  >>>_______________________________________________
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>  >>>
>  >>_______________________________________________
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