[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
John Brown
john at citylinkfiber.com
Tue Jul 21 22:57:32 EDT 2009
Stop enabling them :)
On 7/21/09 8:56 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com> wrote:
> I concur.
>
> But tell that to my Win98 subscribers who refuse to upgrade because their
> Internet works just fine.
> Kelvin Williams
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> Office Main: 678.369.5970
> Fax: 866.895.8557
> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Gotstein <chris at uplogon.com>
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:53:11
> To: Tony Valenti<tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
> Cc: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>; John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>;
> <arin-discuss at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>
>
> Pure IPv6 isn't going to happen overnight, but running dual stack can
> happen now. The more IPv6 we can get out there the better.
>
> --
> Chris Gotstein
> Sr Network Engineer
> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
> 500 N Stephenson Ave
> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
> Phone: 906-774-4847
> Fax: 906-774-0335
> chris at uplogon.com
>
> Tony Valenti wrote:
>> > I'm in Omaha, Nebraska.
>> >
>> > The big thing to us is that as a content provider, we have to serve our
>> > content on a network that is compatible with our customers. If we went
>> > IPV6 on our gear, we'd go out of business because all our customers
>> > would find a content provider who would serve it on IPs that they could
>> > access.
>> >
>> > It is a lot easier to find a new webhost than it is to change ISPs.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Kelvin Williams <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
>> > <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Net-Neutrality is something I fully support. The previous example
>> > was just saying, if ARIN can't help us little guys, we can band
>> > together and help ourselves.
>> >
>> > Kelvin Williams
>> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>> > Fax: 866.895.8557
>> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>> >
>> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From*: John Brown
>> > *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:39:24 -0600
>> > *To*: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>>;
>> > Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>>
>> >
>> > *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>> >
>> > Hang on, I need to scream NET-NEUTRALITY.
>> >
>> > Ah, but market forces will keep you from adding those ACL¹s. Your
>> > customers will find another provider that is ACL free and then you
>> > will be revenue free. :)
>> >
>> >
>> > On 7/21/09 8:30 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
>> > <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they
>> > (Apple, et al) don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they
>> > don't have a legal right when we add ACLs blocking their traffic
>> > from traversing our networks. ;)Kw
>> >
>> > Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:
>> > 678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile:
>> > 678.852.4173Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From*: John Brown
>> > *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02 -0600
>> > *To*: Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com
>> > <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>>; <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
>> > <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>>
>> > *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> accountability.
>> > I¹ll ask the age old question again.
>> >
>> > What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?
>> > If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different
>> > then, what gives ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.
>> >
>> > Its contracts law.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com
>> > <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point
>> > where the big
>> > guys are holding available IP address space over our heads
>> > for a fee.
>> > Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with
>> > every small ISP
>> > that comes along asking for address space.
>> >
>> > We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP
>> > space and also
>> > requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both
>> > attempts
>> > because we could prove we needed the space. We also have
>> > an IPv6 block
>> > and already have it implemented on our routers. But at
>> > this time, the
>> > only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us
>> > running pure
>> > IPv6 for a long time to come.
>> >
>> > ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,
>> > mostly unused
>> > blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a
>> > good start, or
>> > maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from
>> > each of these
>> > companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block
>> > holders of address
>> > space on justification, why can't they do the same on these
>> > large
>> > blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or
>> > more of their
>> > block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then
>> > they should
>> > break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Chris Gotstein
>> > Sr Network Engineer
>> > UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>> > 500 N Stephenson Ave
>> > Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>> > Phone: 906-774-4847
>> > Fax: 906-774-0335
>> > chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>
>> >
>> > Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>> > > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>> > >
>>> > > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion
>> > of IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB
>> > DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>>> > >
>>> > > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy
>> > subscribers running Linux or current versions of Windows
>> > that support IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were
>> > running IPv6.
>>> > >
>>> > > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT
>> > can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,
>> > etc) in use today.
>>> > >
>>> > > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are
>> > protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and
>> > paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8
>> > holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks
>> > they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>> > >
>>> > > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per
>> > IPv4 address because they can go for that.
>>> > >
>>> > > I think instead of talking on these lists that there
>> > should be a steering group developed to address the real
>> > issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW
>> > freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In
>> > my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
>> > networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can
>> > transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users
>> > still running Windows 98.
>>> > >
>>> > > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks
>> > to the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues
>> > without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to
>> > create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>>> > >
>>> > > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the
>> > local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made
>> > sense to us)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Kw
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Kelvin Williams
>>> > > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>> > > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>> > > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>> > > Fax: 866.895.8557
>>> > > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > -----Original Message-----
>>> > > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net
>> > <mailto:tedm at ipinc.net>>
>>> > >
>>> > > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>> > > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com
>> > <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>>
>>> > > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net
>> > <mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>>
>>> > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> > accountability.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely
>> > liking to have
>>> > > some), then a transfer market will
>>> > > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will
>> > suddenly
>>> > > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple
>> > continue to sit
>>> > > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than
>> > charging them
>>> > > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.
>> > Either way,
>>> > > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the
>> > money they lose.
>>> > >
>>> > > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market
>> > never forms
>>> > > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which
>> > case nobody will
>>> > > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>> > >
>>> > > Either way, it works the same.
>>> > >
>>> > > Ted
>>> > >
>>> > > John Brown wrote:
>>>> > >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they
>> > have to assess a
>>>> > >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's
>> > there was no fee as
>>>> > >> part of the "contract".
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> > >>> From: Steve Wagner
>>>>> [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>>>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>> > >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>> > >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> > accountability.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a
NAT
>>>>> > >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak
>> > about,
>>>>> > >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type
of
>>>>> > >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in
them
>>>>> > >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool.
This
>>>>> > >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well
>> > that uses
>>>>> > >>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Regards,
>>>>> > >>> Steve Wagner
>>>>> > >>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>> > >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>> > >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>> > >>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>> > >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>> > >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>> > >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>> > >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>> > >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>> > <mailto:Stwagner at syringanetworks.net>
>>>>> > >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>> > <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>>>>> > >>> The information in this message is intended for the
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>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> > >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>> > <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
>>>>> > >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
>> > John Brown
>>>>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>> > >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> > accountability.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of
>> > managing
>>>>> > >>> the actual
>>>>> > >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space
>> > allocated or
>>>>> > >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers
>> > don't exist any
>>>>> > >>> more.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space
is
>>>>> > >>> higher than the
>>>>> > >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't
>> > happen. I could
>>>>> > >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting
>> > a public spot
>>>>> > >>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got
gobs of
>>>>> > >>> space should
>>>>> > >>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>> > >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
>> > addresses ??
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get
>> > space, I
>>>>> > >>> don't know.
>>>>> > >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a
>> > broad brush.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people
>> > doing
>>>>> > >>> good work
>>>>> > >>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>> > >>> request, I'm sure
>>>>> > >>> it can be resolved.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
>> > privately work
>>>>> > >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>> > >>> muster and what
>>>>> > >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>>> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> > >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>> > <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
>>>>>> > >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
>> > Mike Horwath
>>>>>> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>> > >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>> > >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>> > accountability.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> Hi.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out
of
>>>>>> > >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going
on for
>>>>>> > >>>> way too long.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that
I
>>>>>> > >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years
>> > later, same
>>>>>> > >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to
>> > share the pool.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the
mid/late-1990s
>>>>>> > >>>> when it was posed that
>> > companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>> > >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>> > >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am
>> > sure you
>>>>>> > >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys
who
>> > have
>>>>>> > >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on
their
>>>>>> > >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us
are the
>>>>>> > >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by
>> > about 20
>>>>>> > >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give
Away'
>>>>>> > >>>> stock offering.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
>> > companies: PROFIT
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing
>> > field
>>>>>> > >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It
>> > never has
>>>>>> > >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>>> > >>>> --
>>>>>> > >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
>> > drechsau at iphouse.net <mailto:drechsau at iphouse.net>
>>>>>> > >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by
>> > whatever it is
>>>>>> > >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>> > >>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>> > >>>> You are receiving this message because you are
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>>>>>> > >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription
at:
>>>>>> > >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>> > >>>> Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net>
if
>> > you experience any issues.
>>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>_______________________________________________
>>>>> > >>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>> > >>> You are receiving this message because you are
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>>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>_______________________________________________
>>>> > >> ARIN-Discuss
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>>> > >
>>> > >_______________________________________________
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