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<TITLE>Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.</TITLE>
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<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Stop enabling them :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 7/21/09 8:56 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams@altuscgi.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>I concur.<BR>
<BR>
But tell that to my Win98 subscribers who refuse to upgrade because their Internet works just fine.<BR>
Kelvin Williams<BR>
Altus Communications Group, Inc.<BR>
Office Direct: 678.369.5968<BR>
Office Main: 678.369.5970<BR>
Fax: 866.895.8557<BR>
Mobile: 678.852.4173<BR>
<BR>
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Gotstein <chris@uplogon.com><BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:53:11<BR>
To: Tony Valenti<tony.valenti@powerdnn.com><BR>
Cc: <kwilliams@altuscgi.com>; John Brown<john@citylinkfiber.com>; <arin-discuss@arin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Pure IPv6 isn't going to happen overnight, but running dual stack can<BR>
happen now. The more IPv6 we can get out there the better.<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Chris Gotstein<BR>
Sr Network Engineer<BR>
UP Logon/Computer Connection UP<BR>
500 N Stephenson Ave<BR>
Iron Mountain, MI 49801<BR>
Phone: 906-774-4847<BR>
Fax: 906-774-0335<BR>
chris@uplogon.com<BR>
<BR>
Tony Valenti wrote:<BR>
> I'm in Omaha, Nebraska.<BR>
><BR>
> The big thing to us is that as a content provider, we have to serve our<BR>
> content on a network that is compatible with our customers. If we went<BR>
> IPV6 on our gear, we'd go out of business because all our customers<BR>
> would find a content provider who would serve it on IPs that they could<BR>
> access.<BR>
><BR>
> It is a lot easier to find a new webhost than it is to change ISPs.<BR>
><BR>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Kelvin Williams <kwilliams@altuscgi.com<BR>
> <a href="mailto:kwilliams@altuscgi.com"><mailto:kwilliams@altuscgi.com></a>> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Net-Neutrality is something I fully support. The previous example<BR>
> was just saying, if ARIN can't help us little guys, we can band<BR>
> together and help ourselves.<BR>
><BR>
> Kelvin Williams<BR>
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.<BR>
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968<BR>
> Office Main: 678.369.5970<BR>
> Fax: 866.895.8557<BR>
> Mobile: 678.852.4173<BR>
><BR>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<BR>
><BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> *From*: John Brown<BR>
> *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:39:24 -0600<BR>
> *To*: <kwilliams@altuscgi.com <a href="mailto:kwilliams@altuscgi.com"><mailto:kwilliams@altuscgi.com></a>>;<BR>
> Chris Gotstein<chris@uplogon.com <a href="mailto:chris@uplogon.com"><mailto:chris@uplogon.com></a>><BR>
><BR>
> *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.<BR>
><BR>
> Hang on, I need to scream NET-NEUTRALITY.<BR>
><BR>
> Ah, but market forces will keep you from adding those ACL’s. Your<BR>
> customers will find another provider that is ACL free and then you<BR>
> will be revenue free. :)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 7/21/09 8:30 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams@altuscgi.com<BR>
> <a href="mailto:kwilliams@altuscgi.com"><mailto:kwilliams@altuscgi.com></a>> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they<BR>
> (Apple, et al) don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they<BR>
> don't have a legal right when we add ACLs blocking their traffic<BR>
> from traversing our networks. ;)Kw<BR>
><BR>
> Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:<BR>
> 678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile:<BR>
> 678.852.4173Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<BR>
><BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> *From*: John Brown<BR>
> *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02 -0600<BR>
> *To*: Chris Gotstein<chris@uplogon.com<BR>
> <a href="mailto:chris@uplogon.com"><mailto:chris@uplogon.com></a>>; <kwilliams@altuscgi.com<BR>
> <a href="mailto:kwilliams@altuscgi.com"><mailto:kwilliams@altuscgi.com></a>><BR>
> *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.<BR>
> I’ll ask the age old question again.<BR>
><BR>
> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?<BR>
> If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different<BR>
> then, what gives ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.<BR>
><BR>
> Its contracts law.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris@uplogon.com<BR>
> <a href="mailto:chris@uplogon.com"><mailto:chris@uplogon.com></a>> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point<BR>
> where the big<BR>
> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads<BR>
> for a fee.<BR>
> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with<BR>
> every small ISP<BR>
> that comes along asking for address space.<BR>
><BR>
> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP<BR>
> space and also<BR>
> requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both<BR>
> attempts<BR>
> because we could prove we needed the space. We also have<BR>
> an IPv6 block<BR>
> and already have it implemented on our routers. But at<BR>
> this time, the<BR>
> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us<BR>
> running pure<BR>
> IPv6 for a long time to come.<BR>
><BR>
> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,<BR>
> mostly unused<BR>
> blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a<BR>
> good start, or<BR>
> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from<BR>
> each of these<BR>
> companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block<BR>
> holders of address<BR>
> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these<BR>
> large<BR>
> blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or<BR>
> more of their<BR>
> block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then<BR>
> they should<BR>
> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Chris Gotstein<BR>
> Sr Network Engineer<BR>
> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP<BR>
> 500 N Stephenson Ave<BR>
> Iron Mountain, MI 49801<BR>
> Phone: 906-774-4847<BR>
> Fax: 906-774-0335<BR>
> chris@uplogon.com <a href="mailto:chris@uplogon.com"><mailto:chris@uplogon.com></a><BR>
><BR>
> Kelvin Williams wrote:<BR>
> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion<BR>
> of IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB<BR>
> DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy<BR>
> subscribers running Linux or current versions of Windows<BR>
> that support IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were<BR>
> running IPv6.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT<BR>
> can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,<BR>
> etc) in use today.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are<BR>
> protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and<BR>
> paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8<BR>
> holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks<BR>
> they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per<BR>
> IPv4 address because they can go for that.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there<BR>
> should be a steering group developed to address the real<BR>
> issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW<BR>
> freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In<BR>
> my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their<BR>
> networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can<BR>
> transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users<BR>
> still running Windows 98.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks<BR>
> to the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues<BR>
> without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to<BR>
> create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the<BR>
> local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made<BR>
> sense to us)<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Kw<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Kelvin Williams<BR>
> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.<BR>
> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968<BR>
> > Office Main: 678.369.5970<BR>
> > Fax: 866.895.8557<BR>
> > Mobile: 678.852.4173<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm@ipinc.net<BR>
> <a href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net"><mailto:tedm@ipinc.net></a>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01<BR>
> > To: John Brown<john@citylinkfiber.com<BR>
> <a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com"><mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com></a>><BR>
> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss@arin.net<BR>
> <a href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net"><mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net></a>><BR>
> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<BR>
> accountability.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely<BR>
> liking to have<BR>
> > some), then a transfer market will<BR>
> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will<BR>
> suddenly<BR>
> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple<BR>
> continue to sit<BR>
> > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than<BR>
> charging them<BR>
> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.<BR>
> Either way,<BR>
> > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the<BR>
> money they lose.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market<BR>
> never forms<BR>
> > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which<BR>
> case nobody will<BR>
> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Either way, it works the same.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ted<BR>
> ><BR>
> > John Brown wrote:<BR>
> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they<BR>
> have to assess a<BR>
> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's<BR>
> there was no fee as<BR>
> >> part of the "contract".<BR>
> >><BR>
> >><BR>
> >><BR>
> >>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> >>> From: Steve Wagner [<a href="mailto:stwagner@syringanetworks.net]">mailto:stwagner@syringanetworks.net]</a><BR>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM<BR>
> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon<BR>
> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<BR>
> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<BR>
> accountability.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT<BR>
> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak<BR>
> about,<BR>
> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of<BR>
> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them<BR>
> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This<BR>
> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well<BR>
> that uses<BR>
> >>> a NAT type firewall<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> Regards,<BR>
> >>> Steve Wagner<BR>
> >>> Vice President of Operations<BR>
> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC<BR>
> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100<BR>
> >>> Boise, ID 83705<BR>
> >>> Office: 208.229.6104<BR>
> >>> Main: 208.229.6100<BR>
> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214<BR>
> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110<BR>
> >>> Email: Stwagner@syringanetworks.net<BR>
> <a href="mailto:Stwagner@syringanetworks.net"><mailto:Stwagner@syringanetworks.net></a><BR>
> >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net<BR>
> <a href="http://www.syringanetworks.net"><http://www.syringanetworks.net></a><BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice<BR>
> >>> The information in this message is intended for the named<BR>
> >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is<BR>
> >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from<BR>
> >>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are<BR>
> >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,<BR>
> >>> or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of<BR>
> >>> this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received<BR>
> >>> this e-mail in error, do not print it or disseminate it or<BR>
> >>> its contents. In such event, please notify the sender by<BR>
> >>> return e-mail and delete the e-mail file immediately<BR>
> >>> thereafter. Thank you.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net<BR>
> <a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net"><mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net></a><BR>
> >>> [<a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net]">mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net]</a> On Behalf Of<BR>
> John Brown<BR>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM<BR>
> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon<BR>
> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<BR>
> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<BR>
> accountability.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of<BR>
> managing<BR>
> >>> the actual<BR>
> >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space<BR>
> allocated or<BR>
> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers<BR>
> don't exist any<BR>
> >>> more.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is<BR>
> >>> higher than the<BR>
> >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't<BR>
> happen. I could<BR>
> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting<BR>
> a public spot<BR>
> >>> light on those providers. :|<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of<BR>
> >>> space should<BR>
> >>> return the space they aren't using. <BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???<BR>
> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP<BR>
> addresses ??<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get<BR>
> space, I<BR>
> >>> don't know.<BR>
> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a<BR>
> broad brush.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people<BR>
> doing<BR>
> >>> good work<BR>
> >>> under the guidelines they have.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation<BR>
> >>> request, I'm sure<BR>
> >>> it can be resolved.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to<BR>
> privately work<BR>
> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes<BR>
> >>> muster and what<BR>
> >>> may need to be done to help it float.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net<BR>
> <a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net"><mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net></a><BR>
> >>>> [<a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net]">mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net]</a> On Behalf Of<BR>
> Mike Horwath<BR>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM<BR>
> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon<BR>
> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<BR>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<BR>
> accountability.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> Hi.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of<BR>
> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for<BR>
> >>>> way too long.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I<BR>
> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years<BR>
> later, same<BR>
> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to<BR>
> share the pool.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s<BR>
> >>>> when it was posed that<BR>
> companies/institutions/government be<BR>
> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of<BR>
> >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am<BR>
> sure you<BR>
> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who<BR>
> have<BR>
> >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their<BR>
> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the<BR>
> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by<BR>
> about 20<BR>
> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'<BR>
> >>>> stock offering.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding<BR>
> companies: PROFIT<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing<BR>
> field<BR>
> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It<BR>
> never has<BR>
> >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> --<BR>
> >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!<BR>
> drechsau@iphouse.net <a href="mailto:drechsau@iphouse.net"><mailto:drechsau@iphouse.net></a><BR>
> >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by<BR>
> whatever it is<BR>
> >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune<BR>
> >>>>_______________________________________________<BR>
> >>>> ARIN-Discuss<BR>
> >>>> You are receiving this message because you are<BR>
> subscribed to<BR>
> >>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List<BR>
> (ARIN-discuss@arin.net <a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net"><mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net></a>).<BR>
> >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<BR>
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> >>>> Please contact info@arin.net <a href="mailto:info@arin.net"><mailto:info@arin.net></a> if<BR>
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> >>>><BR>
> >>>_______________________________________________<BR>
> >>> ARIN-Discuss<BR>
> >>> You are receiving this message because you are<BR>
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> >>> Please contact info@arin.net <a href="mailto:info@arin.net"><mailto:info@arin.net></a> if<BR>
> you experience any issues.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>_______________________________________________<BR>
> >> ARIN-Discuss<BR>
> >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<BR>
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> ><BR>
> >_______________________________________________<BR>
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> _______________________________________________<BR>
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