[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

Kelvin Williams kwilliams at altuscgi.com
Tue Jul 21 22:56:48 EDT 2009


I concur. 

But tell that to my Win98 subscribers who refuse to upgrade because their Internet works just fine. 
Kelvin Williams
Altus Communications Group, Inc.
Office Direct: 678.369.5968
Office Main: 678.369.5970
Fax: 866.895.8557
Mobile: 678.852.4173

Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed



-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Gotstein <chris at uplogon.com>

Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:53:11 
To: Tony Valenti<tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
Cc: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>; John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>; <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.


Pure IPv6 isn't going to happen overnight, but running dual stack can 
happen now.  The more IPv6 we can get out there the better.

-- 
Chris Gotstein
Sr Network Engineer
UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
500 N Stephenson Ave
Iron Mountain, MI 49801
Phone: 906-774-4847
Fax: 906-774-0335
chris at uplogon.com

Tony Valenti wrote:
> I'm in Omaha, Nebraska.
> 
> The big thing to us is that as a content provider, we have to serve our 
> content on a network that is compatible with our customers.  If we went 
> IPV6 on our gear, we'd go out of business because all our customers 
> would find a content provider who would serve it on IPs that they could 
> access.
> 
> It is a lot easier to find a new webhost than it is to change ISPs.
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Kelvin Williams <kwilliams at altuscgi.com 
> <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Net-Neutrality is something I fully support. The previous example
>     was just saying, if ARIN can't help us little guys, we can band
>     together and help ourselves.
> 
>     Kelvin Williams
>     Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>     Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>     Office Main: 678.369.5970
>     Fax: 866.895.8557
>     Mobile: 678.852.4173
> 
>     Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From*: John Brown
>     *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:39:24 -0600
>     *To*: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>>;
>     Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>>
> 
>     *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> 
>     Hang on, I need to scream NET-NEUTRALITY.
> 
>     Ah, but market forces will keep you from adding those ACL’s.  Your
>     customers will find another provider that is ACL free and then you
>     will be revenue free. :)
> 
> 
>     On 7/21/09 8:30 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
>     <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>> wrote:
> 
>         ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they
>         (Apple, et al) don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they
>         don't have a legal right when we add ACLs blocking their traffic
>         from traversing our networks. ;)Kw
> 
>         Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:
>         678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile:
>         678.852.4173Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> 
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         *From*:  John Brown
>         *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02 -0600
>         *To*: Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com
>         <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>>; <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
>         <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>>
>         *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>         I’ll ask the age old question again.
> 
>          What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?
>          If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different
>         then, what gives ARIN the ability to  enforce rules today.
> 
>          Its contracts law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>          On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com
>         <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>> wrote:
> 
>             I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point
>             where the big
>              guys are holding available IP address space over our heads
>             for a fee.
>              Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with
>             every small ISP
>              that comes along asking for address space.
> 
>              We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP
>             space and also
>              requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both
>             attempts
>              because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have
>             an IPv6 block
>              and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at
>             this time, the
>              only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us
>             running pure
>              IPv6 for a long time to come.
> 
>              ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,
>             mostly unused
>              blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a
>             good start, or
>              maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from
>             each of these
>              companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block
>             holders of address
>              space on justification, why can't they do the same on these
>             large
>              blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or
>             more of their
>              block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then
>             they should
>              break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
> 
> 
>              --
>              Chris Gotstein
>              Sr Network Engineer
>              UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>              500 N Stephenson Ave
>              Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>              Phone: 906-774-4847
>              Fax: 906-774-0335
>              chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>
> 
>              Kelvin Williams wrote:
>              > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>              >
>              > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion
>             of IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB
>             DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>              >
>              > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy
>             subscribers running Linux or current versions of Windows
>             that support IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were
>             running IPv6.
>              >
>              > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT
>             can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,
>             etc) in use today.
>              >
>              > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are
>             protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and
>             paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8
>             holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks
>             they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>              >
>              > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per
>             IPv4 address because they can go for that.
>              >
>              > I think instead of talking on these lists that there
>             should be a steering group developed to address the real
>             issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW
>             freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In
>             my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
>             networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can
>             transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users
>             still running Windows 98.
>              >
>              > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks
>             to the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues
>             without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to
>             create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>              >
>              > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the
>             local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made
>             sense to us)
>              >
>              >
>              > Kw
>              >
>              >
>              > Kelvin Williams
>              > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>              > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>              > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>              > Fax: 866.895.8557
>              > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>              >
>              > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>              >
>              >
>              >
>              > -----Original Message-----
>              > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net
>             <mailto:tedm at ipinc.net>>
>              >
>              > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>              > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com
>             <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>>
>              > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net
>             <mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>>
>              > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>             accountability.
>              >
>              >
>              >
>              >
>              > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely
>             liking to have
>              > some), then a transfer market will
>              > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will
>             suddenly
>              > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple
>             continue to sit
>              > on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than
>             charging them
>              > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.
>              Either way,
>              > they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the
>             money they lose.
>              >
>              > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market
>             never forms
>              > and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which
>             case nobody will
>              > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>              >
>              > Either way, it works the same.
>              >
>              > Ted
>              >
>              > John Brown wrote:
>              >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they
>             have to assess a
>              >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>              >>
>              >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's
>             there was no fee as
>              >> part of the "contract".
>              >>
>              >>
>              >>
>              >>> -----Original Message-----
>              >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>              >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>              >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>              >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>              >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>             accountability.
>              >>>
>              >>> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
>              >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak
>             about,
>              >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>              >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>              >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>              >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well
>             that uses
>              >>> a NAT type firewall
>              >>>
>              >>>
>              >>> Regards,
>              >>> Steve Wagner
>              >>> Vice President of Operations
>              >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>              >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>              >>> Boise, ID 83705
>              >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>              >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>              >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>              >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>              >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>             <mailto:Stwagner at syringanetworks.net>
>              >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>             <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
>              >>>
>              >>>
>              >>>
>              >>>
>              >>>
>              >>>
>              >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>              >>>
>              >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>              >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
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>              >>>
>              >>> -----Original Message-----
>              >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>             <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
>              >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
>             John Brown
>              >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>              >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>              >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>              >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>             accountability.
>              >>>
>              >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of
>             managing
>              >>> the actual
>              >>> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space
>             allocated or
>              >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers
>             don't exist any
>              >>> more.
>              >>>
>              >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>              >>> higher than the
>              >>> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't
>             happen.  I could
>              >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting
>             a public spot
>              >>> light on those providers. :|
>              >>>
>              >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>              >>> space should
>              >>> return the space they aren't using.  
>              >>>
>              >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>              >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>              >>>
>              >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
>             addresses ??
>              >>>
>              >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get
>             space, I
>              >>> don't know.
>              >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a
>             broad brush.
>              >>>
>              >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people
>             doing
>              >>> good work
>              >>> under the guidelines they have.
>              >>>
>              >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>              >>> request, I'm sure
>              >>> it can be resolved.
>              >>>
>              >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
>             privately work
>              >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>              >>> muster and what
>              >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>              >>>
>              >>>> -----Original Message-----
>              >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>             <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
>              >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
>             Mike Horwath
>              >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>              >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>              >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>              >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>             accountability.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> Hi.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>              >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>              >>>> way too long.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>              >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years
>             later, same
>              >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to
>             share the pool.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>              >>>> when it was posed that
>             companies/institutions/government be
>              >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>              >>>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am
>             sure you
>              >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who
>             have
>              >>>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
>              >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
>              >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>              >>>>
>              >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by
>             about 20
>              >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>              >>>> stock offering.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
>             companies:  PROFIT
>              >>>>
>              >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing
>             field
>              >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It
>             never has
>              >>>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>              >>>>
>              >>>> --
>              >>>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!
>                   drechsau at iphouse.net <mailto:drechsau at iphouse.net>
>              >>>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by
>             whatever it is
>              >>>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>              >>>>_______________________________________________
>              >>>> ARIN-Discuss
>              >>>> You are receiving this message because you are
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>              >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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>              >>>> Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if
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>              >>>>
>              >>>_______________________________________________
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>              >>_______________________________________________
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> 
> 
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