[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Chris Gotstein
chris at uplogon.com
Tue Jul 21 22:53:11 EDT 2009
Pure IPv6 isn't going to happen overnight, but running dual stack can
happen now. The more IPv6 we can get out there the better.
--
Chris Gotstein
Sr Network Engineer
UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
500 N Stephenson Ave
Iron Mountain, MI 49801
Phone: 906-774-4847
Fax: 906-774-0335
chris at uplogon.com
Tony Valenti wrote:
> I'm in Omaha, Nebraska.
>
> The big thing to us is that as a content provider, we have to serve our
> content on a network that is compatible with our customers. If we went
> IPV6 on our gear, we'd go out of business because all our customers
> would find a content provider who would serve it on IPs that they could
> access.
>
> It is a lot easier to find a new webhost than it is to change ISPs.
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Kelvin Williams <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
> <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>> wrote:
>
> Net-Neutrality is something I fully support. The previous example
> was just saying, if ARIN can't help us little guys, we can band
> together and help ourselves.
>
> Kelvin Williams
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> Office Main: 678.369.5970
> Fax: 866.895.8557
> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From*: John Brown
> *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:39:24 -0600
> *To*: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>>;
> Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>>
>
> *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>
> Hang on, I need to scream NET-NEUTRALITY.
>
> Ah, but market forces will keep you from adding those ACL’s. Your
> customers will find another provider that is ACL free and then you
> will be revenue free. :)
>
>
> On 7/21/09 8:30 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
> <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>> wrote:
>
> ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they
> (Apple, et al) don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they
> don't have a legal right when we add ACLs blocking their traffic
> from traversing our networks. ;)Kw
>
> Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:
> 678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile:
> 678.852.4173Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From*: John Brown
> *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02 -0600
> *To*: Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com
> <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>>; <kwilliams at altuscgi.com
> <mailto:kwilliams at altuscgi.com>>
> *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> I’ll ask the age old question again.
>
> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?
> If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different
> then, what gives ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.
>
> Its contracts law.
>
>
>
>
> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com
> <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>> wrote:
>
> I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point
> where the big
> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads
> for a fee.
> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with
> every small ISP
> that comes along asking for address space.
>
> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP
> space and also
> requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both
> attempts
> because we could prove we needed the space. We also have
> an IPv6 block
> and already have it implemented on our routers. But at
> this time, the
> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us
> running pure
> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>
> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,
> mostly unused
> blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a
> good start, or
> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from
> each of these
> companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block
> holders of address
> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these
> large
> blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or
> more of their
> block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then
> they should
> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>
>
> --
> Chris Gotstein
> Sr Network Engineer
> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
> 500 N Stephenson Ave
> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
> Phone: 906-774-4847
> Fax: 906-774-0335
> chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>
>
> Kelvin Williams wrote:
> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
> >
> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion
> of IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB
> DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
> >
> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy
> subscribers running Linux or current versions of Windows
> that support IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were
> running IPv6.
> >
> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT
> can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,
> etc) in use today.
> >
> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are
> protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and
> paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8
> holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks
> they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
> >
> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per
> IPv4 address because they can go for that.
> >
> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there
> should be a steering group developed to address the real
> issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW
> freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In
> my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
> networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can
> transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users
> still running Windows 98.
> >
> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks
> to the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues
> without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to
> create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
> >
> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the
> local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made
> sense to us)
> >
> >
> > Kw
> >
> >
> > Kelvin Williams
> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
> > Fax: 866.895.8557
> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net
> <mailto:tedm at ipinc.net>>
> >
> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
> > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com
> <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>>
> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>>
> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> accountability.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely
> liking to have
> > some), then a transfer market will
> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will
> suddenly
> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple
> continue to sit
> > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than
> charging them
> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.
> Either way,
> > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the
> money they lose.
> >
> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market
> never forms
> > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which
> case nobody will
> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
> >
> > Either way, it works the same.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > John Brown wrote:
> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they
> have to assess a
> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
> >>
> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's
> there was no fee as
> >> part of the "contract".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> accountability.
> >>>
> >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT
> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak
> about,
> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well
> that uses
> >>> a NAT type firewall
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Steve Wagner
> >>> Vice President of Operations
> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
> >>> Boise, ID 83705
> >>> Office: 208.229.6104
> >>> Main: 208.229.6100
> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
> >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
> <mailto:Stwagner at syringanetworks.net>
> >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
> <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
> >>>
> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
> >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
> >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is
> >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
> >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
> John Brown
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> accountability.
> >>>
> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of
> managing
> >>> the actual
> >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space
> allocated or
> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers
> don't exist any
> >>> more.
> >>>
> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
> >>> higher than the
> >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't
> happen. I could
> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting
> a public spot
> >>> light on those providers. :|
> >>>
> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
> >>> space should
> >>> return the space they aren't using.
> >>>
> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
> >>>
> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
> addresses ??
> >>>
> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get
> space, I
> >>> don't know.
> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a
> broad brush.
> >>>
> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people
> doing
> >>> good work
> >>> under the guidelines they have.
> >>>
> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
> >>> request, I'm sure
> >>> it can be resolved.
> >>>
> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
> privately work
> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
> >>> muster and what
> >>> may need to be done to help it float.
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
> >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
> Mike Horwath
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> accountability.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi.
> >>>>
> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
> >>>> way too long.
> >>>>
> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years
> later, same
> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to
> share the pool.
> >>>>
> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
> >>>> when it was posed that
> companies/institutions/government be
> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
> >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am
> sure you
> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
> >>>>
> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
> >>>>
> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who
> have
> >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their
> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the
> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
> >>>>
> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by
> about 20
> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
> >>>> stock offering.
> >>>>
> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
> companies: PROFIT
> >>>>
> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing
> field
> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It
> never has
> >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
> >>>>
> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
> drechsau at iphouse.net <mailto:drechsau at iphouse.net>
> >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by
> whatever it is
> >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
> >>>>_______________________________________________
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