ARIN Justified...

Jeffrey L Price jeff at alexandriainternet.com
Thu Jan 4 16:26:07 EST 2001


I know of a couple of name based virtual servers right off the top of my head that are on yahoo.  I will have to check the others.  So that seems not completely correct.

-jeff
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott Rogers 
  To: 'Jeffrey L Price' ; Scott Rogers ; 'Bill Cartwright' 
  Cc: vwp at arin.net 
  Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 2:01 PM
  Subject: RE: ARIN Justified...


  Yahoo, Lycos, GO, ...
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jeffrey L Price [mailto:jeff at alexandriainternet.com]
    Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:43 PM
    To: Scott Rogers; 'Bill Cartwright'
    Cc: Adam Douglass; vwp at arin.net
    Subject: Re: ARIN Justified...


    I have seen the term "lots" or "many", what I would like to know is which search engines use IP address instead of URL?  Specifically by name.

    -jeff
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Scott Rogers 
      To: 'Bill Cartwright' ; Scott Rogers 
      Cc: Adam Douglass ; 'vwp at arin.net' 
      Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 11:18 AM
      Subject: RE: ARIN Justified...


      Because if you don't, you will use up all the available IP addresses.

      It's like tree's in a forest.  They are cheap.  But if you cut them ALL
      down, then what do you do for wood ?

      The problem is:
      1.    We want lots of web sites.
      2.    We need IP addresses.
      3.    There are only so many IP addresses to go around.
      So,
      4.    How can I have lots of Web sites, without using up all the IP addresses.

      Big guys (GE, IBM, CISCO, EBAY, etc) can afford $1,000 or $2,000 per IP,
      which is what they could cost if we exhaust them (and have only a small pool left).
      Can you afford that much money to start a web site?  
      The law of supply and demand will eventually rule.
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bill Cartwright [mailto:bill at hergoods.com]
        Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:27 AM
        To: Scott Rogers
        Subject: Re: ARIN Justified...


        Why bother with name based hosting with all the issues against it. If name based hosting prevents you from getting on a search engine, why do it.
        Bill Cartwright
        ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Scott Rogers 
          To: 'Joe DeCosta' ; 'vwp at arin.net' 
          Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 8:53 AM
          Subject: ARIN Justified...


          I'm the network engineer for a large dedicated server/colocation facility
          and I agree that  IP addresses and their maintenance is a large pain in the
          ass.  We have a little over 1/2 a clacc B equivelent and are still growing.

          I have been trying to push customers to use "Name Based" virtual hosting,
          and keep making the sales guys have customers justify needing more than
          32 addresses.  We charge $1 per address per month, so it's an important
          revenue stream.

          As a "network engineer", it's also important to know that IP addresses
          are a "fixed" resource.  When they are gone, that's it.  Yes, I know
          that IPV6 will cure our problems.  Well they have been working on it
          for over 8 years and we don't seem realistically very close to it.

          People will hoard (hey anybody want to buy 48 pre CIDR class C addresse)
          networks and address and then try to make a killing in the parket.  I
          remember several years ago people offering to sell their class B addresses
          that they had from old APRANET days for tens and hundreds of thousands
          of dollars.

          My point is, that the revenue stream is usless is you can't get more
          addresses later.  We have to push back at our customers for REAL 
          justifications,  and my providers and ARIN have to push back to me
          me for the same.  ARIN, RIPE, et. al. then have to justify to the IANA
          (or whatever) for allocations as well.

          Market pricing won't give us the conservation we need.

          WHat will help is to eliminate the need for REAL IP so people can use
          NAME based servers.

          Issues;
          * All browsers have to support HTTP/1.1 and name based browsing.
          Mostly done now  AOL and COMPUSERVE were the biggest offenders.

          * SSL Certificates may not always work with NAME based due to
          reverse IP not matching the certificates.

          * The biggest issue (to my customers), the SEARCH ENGINES need to
          support HTTP/1.1 and name based virtual servers.  Most do not.
          We, as a community, need to push the search engines into building
          in support.  If we do this, we will solve a significant
          portion of the problem.  The SSL requirements I feel are probably
          not a siginficant portion of the problem

          Just my 2 cents.
          -- 
          Scott W. Rogers  <SRogers at affinity.com>   +1-410-558-2750   (Fax:
          +1410-563-5457)
          Network/Systems/Security Engineer -- SkyNetWEB, Ltd.  An Affinity Company
          3500 Boston St. #231  --  Baltimore, Maryland 21224



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Joe DeCosta [mailto:decosta at bayconnect.com]
          Sent: Wed

          nesday, January 03, 2001 6:26 PM
          To: Jawaid.Bazyar at forethought.net
          Cc: Clayton Lambert; 'Alec H. Peterson'; vwp at arin.net
          Subject: Re: Been quiet in here...


          now, how about this, raise the pricing, and then donate the profit to some
          NPO, or some such thing, i just *HATE* having to update the damned IP usage
          spreadsheet and sending it to our uplink who owns the class C we have.  its
          a pain in the ass, ever time we move stuff around on our network....... It
          costs too much time to do it that way.  If the IP's are on a free market,
          then why must we also then justify them?


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <Jawaid.Bazyar at forethought.net>
          To: "Joe DeCosta" <decosta at bayconnect.com>
          Cc: "Clayton Lambert" <Clay at exodus.net>; "'Alec H. Peterson'"
          <ahp at hilander.com>; <vwp at arin.net>
          Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 3:12 PM
          Subject: Re: Been quiet in here...


          >
          > That's because in the lack of a "free market" for IP addresses, the
          > pricing was set arbitrarily - to cover the expenses of operating ARIN.
          >
          > That's not to say that that is bad, or without reasoning. It's just that
          > if you're going to disassociate the pricing from the costs necessary to
          > administer ARIN, instead of raising the price to discourage waste, you
          > should let people buy and sell blocks on an open market. Free markets are
          > very sensitive to the scarcity of resources via the price mechanism.
          >
          > That's not saying I think IPs are particularly scarce. I've made the
          > argument before that it seems that CIDR is more about saving face for
          > Cisco's underpowered heaps than conserving IP space.
          >
          > However, the current IP allocation system works fairly well, and in that
          > system the best approach is to tell people to stop provisioning web sites
          > in a wasteful manner that was only every necessitated by flaws in the
          > original technology.
          >
          > Besides, it's WAY easier to provision IP-less web sites. :)
          >
          >
          >
          > On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Joe DeCosta wrote:
          >
          > > This modification i agree with, my only objection is that why should
          people
          > > have to justify the usage of their netblock, why not just up the costs
          to
          > > encourage them to use as few IP's as possible.  It would seem to be more
          > > effective.  Just my thoughts.
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Clayton Lambert" <Clay at exodus.net>
          > > To: "'Alec H. Peterson'" <ahp at hilander.com>; <vwp at arin.net>
          > > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:40 PM
          > > Subject: RE: Been quiet in here...
          > >
          > >
          > > > We should re-institute the policy with modifications to the text for
          > > > clarity.  Service providing should be the catch word instead of
          > > web-hosting.
          > > >
          > > > There should be clear reference to technical exceptions to the policy
          > > (this
          > > > should NOT be in the form of specific exceptions, as technical reasons
          for
          > > > exception to the policy can easily step beyond the ability of a
          "list",
          > > > hence the reason for maintainer discretion), only technical exceptions
          > > > should be allowed (as opposed to policy exceptions). The entity
          assigned
          > > the
          > > > overall netblock should have discretion for determining the exceptions
          to
          > > > the policy and should maintain the documentation for the exception,
          and
          > > make
          > > > the info available to ARIN on in audit-style format (NDA should be
          > > manditory
          > > > between the Netblock maintainer and ARIN).
          > > >
          > > > Clay
          > > > Exodus Communications
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: owner-vwp at arin.net [mailto:owner-vwp at arin.net]On Behalf Of Alec
          H.
          > > > Peterson
          > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:54 PM
          > > > To: vwp at arin.net
          > > > Subject: Been quiet in here...
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Are there any more thoughts on what we should do with the so-called
          > > virtual
          > > > hosting policy?
          > > >
          > > > Alec
          > > >
          > > > --
          > > > Alec H. Peterson - ahp at hilander.com
          > > > Staff Scientist
          > > > CenterGate Research Group - http://www.centergate.com
          > > > "Technology so advanced, even _we_ don't understand it!"
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          >  Jawaid Bazyar                 |   Affordable WWW & Internet Solutions
          >  foreThought.net               |   for Small Business
          >  jawaid.bazyar at foreThought.net |   910 16th Street, #1220  (303) 228-0070
          >  --The Future is Now!--        |   Denver, CO 80202        (303) 228-0077
          fax
          >
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