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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know of a couple of name based virtual servers
right off the top of my head that are on yahoo. I will have to check the
others. So that seems not completely correct.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-jeff</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=SRogers@Affinity.com href="mailto:SRogers@Affinity.com">Scott
Rogers</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jeff@alexandriainternet.com
href="mailto:jeff@alexandriainternet.com">'Jeffrey L Price'</A> ; <A
title=SRogers@Affinity.com href="mailto:SRogers@Affinity.com">Scott Rogers</A>
; <A title=bill@hergoods.com href="mailto:bill@hergoods.com">'Bill
Cartwright'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vwp@arin.net
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04, 2001 2:01
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: ARIN Justified...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=809341319-04012001>Yahoo, Lycos, GO, ...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jeffrey L Price
[mailto:jeff@alexandriainternet.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04,
2001 12:43 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Scott Rogers; 'Bill Cartwright'<BR><B>Cc:</B>
Adam Douglass; <A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ARIN
Justified...<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have seen the term "lots" or "many", what I
would like to know is which search engines use IP address instead of
URL? Specifically by name.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-jeff</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=SRogers@Affinity.com href="mailto:SRogers@Affinity.com">Scott
Rogers</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=bill@hergoods.com
href="mailto:bill@hergoods.com">'Bill Cartwright'</A> ; <A
title=SRogers@Affinity.com href="mailto:SRogers@Affinity.com">Scott
Rogers</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=ADouglass@Affinity.com
href="mailto:ADouglass@Affinity.com">Adam Douglass</A> ; <A
title=vwp@arin.net href="mailto:'vwp@arin.net'">'vwp@arin.net'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04, 2001
11:18 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: ARIN Justified...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>Because if you don't, you will use up all the
available IP addresses.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>It's like tree's in a forest. They are
cheap. But if you cut them ALL</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>down, then what do you do for wood
?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>The problem is:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>1. We want lots of web
sites.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>2. We need IP
addresses.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>3. There are only so many IP
addresses to go around.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>So,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>4. How can I have lots of Web
sites, without using up all the IP addresses.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>Big guys (GE, IBM, CISCO, EBAY, etc) can afford
$1,000 or $2,000 per IP,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>which is what they could cost </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=421532516-04012001>if we
exhaust them (and have only a small pool left).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>Can you afford that </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=421532516-04012001>much money
to start a web site? </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>The law of supply and demand will
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>eventually rule.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bill Cartwright
[mailto:bill@hergoods.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04, 2001
10:27 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Scott Rogers<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ARIN
Justified...<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why bother with name based hosting with all
the issues against it. If name based hosting prevents you from getting
on a search engine, why do it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Bill Cartwright<BR>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=SRogers@Affinity.com href="mailto:SRogers@Affinity.com">Scott
Rogers</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=decosta@bayconnect.com href="mailto:decosta@bayconnect.com">'Joe
DeCosta'</A> ; <A title=vwp@arin.net
href="mailto:'vwp@arin.net'">'vwp@arin.net'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04, 2001
8:53 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> ARIN Justified...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm the network engineer for a large dedicated
server/colocation facility<BR>and I agree that IP addresses and
their maintenance is a large pain in the<BR>ass. We have a
little over 1/2 a clacc B equivelent and are still growing.<BR><BR>I
have been trying to push customers to use "Name Based" virtual
hosting,<BR>and keep making the sales guys have customers justify
needing more than<BR>32 addresses. We charge $1 per address per
month, so it's an important<BR>revenue stream.<BR><BR>As a "network
engineer", it's also important to know that IP addresses<BR>are a
"fixed" resource. When they are gone, that's it. Yes, I
know<BR>that IPV6 will cure our problems. Well they have been
working on it<BR>for over 8 years and we don't seem realistically very
close to it.<BR><BR>People will hoard (hey anybody want to buy 48 pre
CIDR class C addresse)<BR>networks and address and then try to make a
killing in the parket. I<BR>remember several years ago people
offering to sell their class B addresses<BR>that they had from old
APRANET days for tens and hundreds of thousands<BR>of
dollars.<BR><BR>My point is, that the revenue stream is usless is you
can't get more<BR>addresses later. We have to push back at our
customers for REAL <BR>justifications, and my providers and ARIN
have to push back to me<BR>me for the same. ARIN, RIPE, et. al.
then have to justify to the IANA<BR>(or whatever) for allocations as
well.<BR><BR>Market pricing won't give us the conservation we
need.<BR><BR>WHat will help is to eliminate the need for REAL IP so
people can use<BR>NAME based servers.<BR><BR>Issues;<BR>* All browsers
have to support HTTP/1.1 and name based browsing.<BR>Mostly done
now AOL and COMPUSERVE were the biggest offenders.<BR><BR>* SSL
Certificates may not always work with NAME based due to<BR>reverse IP
not matching the certificates.<BR><BR>* The biggest issue (to my
customers), the SEARCH ENGINES need to<BR>support HTTP/1.1 and name
based virtual servers. Most do not.<BR>We, as a community, need
to push the search engines into building<BR>in support. If we do
this, we will solve a significant<BR>portion of the problem. The
SSL requirements I feel are probably<BR>not a siginficant portion of
the problem<BR><BR>Just my 2 cents.<BR>-- <BR>Scott W. Rogers
<<A
href="mailto:SRogers@affinity.com">SRogers@affinity.com</A>>
+1-410-558-2750
(Fax:<BR>+1410-563-5457)<BR>Network/Systems/Security Engineer --
SkyNetWEB, Ltd. An Affinity Company<BR>3500 Boston St.
#231 -- Baltimore, Maryland
21224<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Joe DeCosta
[mailto:decosta@bayconnect.com]<BR>Sent: Wed<BR><BR>nesday, January
03, 2001 6:26 PM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:Jawaid.Bazyar@forethought.net">Jawaid.Bazyar@forethought.net</A><BR>Cc:
Clayton Lambert; 'Alec H. Peterson'; <A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A><BR>Subject: Re: Been quiet
in here...<BR><BR><BR>now, how about this, raise the pricing, and then
donate the profit to some<BR>NPO, or some such thing, i just *HATE*
having to update the damned IP usage<BR>spreadsheet and sending it to
our uplink who owns the class C we have. its<BR>a pain in the
ass, ever time we move stuff around on our network....... It<BR>costs
too much time to do it that way. If the IP's are on a free
market,<BR>then why must we also then justify them?<BR><BR><BR>-----
Original Message -----<BR>From: <<A
href="mailto:Jawaid.Bazyar@forethought.net">Jawaid.Bazyar@forethought.net</A>><BR>To:
"Joe DeCosta" <<A
href="mailto:decosta@bayconnect.com">decosta@bayconnect.com</A>><BR>Cc:
"Clayton Lambert" <<A
href="mailto:Clay@exodus.net">Clay@exodus.net</A>>; "'Alec H.
Peterson'"<BR><<A
href="mailto:ahp@hilander.com">ahp@hilander.com</A>>; <<A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A>><BR>Sent: Wednesday,
January 03, 2001 3:12 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Been quiet in
here...<BR><BR><BR>><BR>> That's because in the lack of a "free
market" for IP addresses, the<BR>> pricing was set arbitrarily - to
cover the expenses of operating ARIN.<BR>><BR>> That's not to
say that that is bad, or without reasoning. It's just that<BR>> if
you're going to disassociate the pricing from the costs necessary
to<BR>> administer ARIN, instead of raising the price to discourage
waste, you<BR>> should let people buy and sell blocks on an open
market. Free markets are<BR>> very sensitive to the scarcity of
resources via the price mechanism.<BR>><BR>> That's not saying I
think IPs are particularly scarce. I've made the<BR>> argument
before that it seems that CIDR is more about saving face for<BR>>
Cisco's underpowered heaps than conserving IP space.<BR>><BR>>
However, the current IP allocation system works fairly well, and in
that<BR>> system the best approach is to tell people to stop
provisioning web sites<BR>> in a wasteful manner that was only
every necessitated by flaws in the<BR>> original
technology.<BR>><BR>> Besides, it's WAY easier to provision
IP-less web sites. :)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> On Wed, 3 Jan
2001, Joe DeCosta wrote:<BR>><BR>> > This modification i
agree with, my only objection is that why should<BR>people<BR>>
> have to justify the usage of their netblock, why not just up the
costs<BR>to<BR>> > encourage them to use as few IP's as
possible. It would seem to be more<BR>> > effective.
Just my thoughts.<BR>> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>>
> From: "Clayton Lambert" <<A
href="mailto:Clay@exodus.net">Clay@exodus.net</A>><BR>> > To:
"'Alec H. Peterson'" <<A
href="mailto:ahp@hilander.com">ahp@hilander.com</A>>; <<A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A>><BR>> > Sent:
Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:40 PM<BR>> > Subject: RE: Been
quiet in here...<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > > We should
re-institute the policy with modifications to the text for<BR>>
> > clarity. Service providing should be the catch word
instead of<BR>> > web-hosting.<BR>> > ><BR>> >
> There should be clear reference to technical exceptions to the
policy<BR>> > (this<BR>> > > should NOT be in the form
of specific exceptions, as technical reasons<BR>for<BR>> > >
exception to the policy can easily step beyond the ability of
a<BR>"list",<BR>> > > hence the reason for maintainer
discretion), only technical exceptions<BR>> > > should be
allowed (as opposed to policy exceptions). The
entity<BR>assigned<BR>> > the<BR>> > > overall netblock
should have discretion for determining the exceptions<BR>to<BR>>
> > the policy and should maintain the documentation for the
exception,<BR>and<BR>> > make<BR>> > > the info
available to ARIN on in audit-style format (NDA should be<BR>> >
manditory<BR>> > > between the Netblock maintainer and
ARIN).<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Clay<BR>> > >
Exodus Communications<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >
> -----Original Message-----<BR>> > > From: <A
href="mailto:owner-vwp@arin.net">owner-vwp@arin.net</A>
[mailto:owner-vwp@arin.net]On Behalf Of Alec<BR>H.<BR>> > >
Peterson<BR>> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:54
PM<BR>> > > To: <A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A><BR>> > > Subject:
Been quiet in here...<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >
> Are there any more thoughts on what we should do with the
so-called<BR>> > virtual<BR>> > > hosting
policy?<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Alec<BR>> >
><BR>> > > --<BR>> > > Alec H. Peterson - <A
href="mailto:ahp@hilander.com">ahp@hilander.com</A><BR>> > >
Staff Scientist<BR>> > > CenterGate Research Group - <A
href="http://www.centergate.com">http://www.centergate.com</A><BR>>
> > "Technology so advanced, even _we_ don't understand
it!"<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>><BR>> --<BR>> Jawaid
Bazyar
| Affordable WWW & Internet Solutions<BR>>
foreThought.net
| for Small Business<BR>> <A
href="mailto:jawaid.bazyar@foreThought.net">jawaid.bazyar@foreThought.net</A>
| 910 16th Street, #1220 (303)
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