[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 243, Issue 23
N Leblanc
nl at mincompute.net
Sun Sep 21 03:19:06 EDT 2025
Hey Everyone,
I agree with Owen's position here -- standardizing on common terminology
and avoiding local acronyms or definitions when performing
cross-organizational/country/etc. work is usually a very strong
positive, and I think a good idea in the long-term (see recommendations
from ICS and similar frameworks on cross-functional comms). If the
global internet community uses LIR and we already use it
almost-interchangeably with the term ISP on our end, there is a very
real advantage in standardizing on LIR as well and doing it now--instead
of persisting in investing in a different term--which will make an
eventual migration even more painful/annoying/costly, and bring with it
its share of change-aversion/sunk cost fallacy shenanigans. Doubly so as
LIR is something that is accurately defined, and ISP is term with a
hundred different colloquial/regulatory/personal interpretations.
Nothing stops us from, even while standardizing on LIR, defining some
specifics around the usage and meaning of the term for our region as a
whole, as well as interchangeability guidance (though we should not try
to fully redefine it, as this kinda renders the whole change moot). That
will make our policy be more easily understood by the people that
interconnect with us, and similarly have our policy folks be immediately
familiar with other region's wording.
At the end of the day, ARIN already moved to Allocations for members by
default, and while some policy requirement distinctions remain
surrounding ISP/LIR/End User resource requests, the direction seems to
be towards streamlining the process and definitions, which I think is a
good thing!
All the best,
-N
On 2025-09-21 00:58, arin-ppml-request at arin.net wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify ISP and LIR
> Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM Text
> (Jon Lewis)
> 2. Re: Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify ISP and LIR
> Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM Text
> (Mohibul Mahmud)
> 3. Re: Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify ISP and LIR
> Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM Text
> (Owen DeLong)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2025 22:31:56 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Jon Lewis <jlewis at lewis.org>
> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify
> ISP and LIR Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM
> Text
> Message-ID: <dd7a6ed8-f87d-194a-c1c-80c58baafcc at lewis.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2025, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>
>> Please explain what is confusing?about the current usage of both LIR and ISP?
>> The following Blog post from ARIN seems perfectly straightforward to me;
>> ?https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/
>>
>> And the following page is about Requesting IP addresses.
>> https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/
>>
>>
>> They both seem to address the idea that LIR and ISP are effectively?the same thing.
>
> Just a week ago, I asked if someone could give examples of how an ARIN
> member could be an LIR and not be an ISP, and was told "there are ways".
>
> The page referenced above is confusing, because it simultaneously says ISP
> = LIR and LIR != ISP. If an LIR is "generally" an ISP, then that suggests
> there are circumstances in which an LIR is not an ISP.
>
>>From the page:
>
> Let?s start by defining the elephant in the room: Local Internet Registry
> (LIR). In short, an LIR is an Internet Service Provider (ISP). As defined
> in ARIN?s Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM):
>
> ?A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns address
> space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are
> generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are
> primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.?
>
> You may find that ARIN and many members of the community use ISP and LIR
> interchangeably in conversation. So, when someone says ?ISP,? you can
> think of that as ?ISP/LIR.?
>
> So, which is it? ISP and LIR are the same thing, or all ISPs with direct
> allocations can be LIRs (but don't have to be), but not all LIRs are ISPs?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route
> Blue Stream Fiber, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are
> _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2025 23:57:55 -0400
> From: Mohibul Mahmud <mohibul.mahmud at gmail.com>
> To: Jon Lewis <jlewis at lewis.org>
> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify
> ISP and LIR Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM
> Text
> Message-ID:
> <CADdAvgGPFdMYVufQNZnBn5T9sfBYjaQ62QL-rUoUv-et0tTbOg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the continued thoughtful discussion on this draft policy. The
> core challenge is balancing global precision (the ?LIR? term of art)
> with regional
> accessibility and consistency (the ?ISP? label used in ARIN?s operations
> and documentation).
>
>
>
> A practical example of how this balance is handled elsewhere comes from the
> DNS community. Both ICANN and the IETF distinguish between ?authoritative
> name server? (precise, technical role) and the broader term ?name server?
> or ?DNS server? (commonly used in general documentation). For example:
>
>
>
> - ICANN?s glossary provides a specific definition of ?authoritative name
> server.?
>
> https://www.icann.org/en/icann-acronyms-and-terms/authoritative-name-server-en?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=A-,authoritative%20name%20server,-A%20Domain%20Name
>
>
>
> - IETF RFC 9499 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/> notes that
> both authoritative servers and resolvers are ?often called DNS servers or
> name servers, even though they serve different roles.?
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=often%20called%0A%20%20%20%22DNS%20servers%22%20and%20%22name%20servers%22%20even%20though%20they%20serve%20different%0A%20%20%20roles
>
>
>
> This model works because the precise role is rigorously defined, while the
> common terminology remains usable for general understanding.
>
>
>
> I suggest ARIN adopt a similar dual-term approach:
>
> 1. In NRPM text: Use ?ISP (LIR)? on first reference in sections, then
> ?ISP? with the clarified meaning.
> 2. Glossary definition: Add an NRPM glossary entry: ?ISP: For the
> purposes of this document, ISP is equivalent to Local Internet Registry
> (LIR).?
> 3. Operational consistency: Continue using ?ISP? in templates, guides,
> and ARIN?s website, backed by the clarified definition.
>
>
>
> This approach addresses the ambiguity directly. It acknowledges the global
> standard (LIR) while respecting ARIN?s established conventions (ISP),
> ensuring the policy is both precise for experts and accessible to newcomers.
>
>
>
> Would the authors and community be open to incorporating this kind of
> dual-term definition into the draft policy text?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mohibul Mahmud
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2025 at 10:32?PM Jon Lewis <jlewis at lewis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Sep 2025, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>>
>>> Please explain what is confusing about the current usage of both LIR and
>> ISP?
>>> The following Blog post from ARIN seems perfectly straightforward to me;
>>> https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/
>>>
>>> And the following page is about Requesting IP addresses.
>>> https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/
>>>
>>>
>>> They both seem to address the idea that LIR and ISP are effectively the
>> same thing.
>>
>> Just a week ago, I asked if someone could give examples of how an ARIN
>> member could be an LIR and not be an ISP, and was told "there are ways".
>>
>> The page referenced above is confusing, because it simultaneously says ISP
>> = LIR and LIR != ISP. If an LIR is "generally" an ISP, then that suggests
>> there are circumstances in which an LIR is not an ISP.
>>
>> From the page:
>>
>> Let?s start by defining the elephant in the room: Local Internet Registry
>> (LIR). In short, an LIR is an Internet Service Provider (ISP). As defined
>> in ARIN?s Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM):
>>
>> ?A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns address
>> space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are
>> generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are
>> primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.?
>>
>> You may find that ARIN and many members of the community use ISP and LIR
>> interchangeably in conversation. So, when someone says ?ISP,? you can
>> think of that as ?ISP/LIR.?
>>
>> So, which is it? ISP and LIR are the same thing, or all ISPs with direct
>> allocations can be LIRs (but don't have to be), but not all LIRs are ISPs?
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route
>> Blue Stream Fiber, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are
>> _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public
>> key________________________________________________________
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2025 21:58:01 -0700
> From: Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>
> To: Mohibul Mahmud <mohibul.mahmud at gmail.com>
> Cc: Jon Lewis <jlewis at lewis.org>, arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify
> ISP and LIR Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM
> Text
> Message-ID: <E86C7F95-8017-4B12-8E25-D9A73CC45A09 at delong.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> So your suggestion in my estimation would be roughly equivalent to publishing all technical drawings and schematics showing measurements in inches, but redefining an inch to be 32mm and having a note somewhere explaining that throughout the drawing,
> Inches are actually 32mm long instead of 25.4mm.
>
> I don?t think this reduces confusion, but rather exacerbates and prolongs it. I truly don?t understand the advantage of not simply having a proper definition of LIR and noting that said definition includes, but is not limited to all classes of ISP. If you want to also define ISP for ARIN policy purposes as including what most people think of as an ISP plus everything else in the LIR category, sure, I don?t mind that, but let?s please standardize ARIN terminology with the rest of the world and user LIR.
>
> While NRPM doesn?t control ARIN business practices, were we to do that, I?d certainly submit an ACSP encouraging the board and staff to adopt LIR as their standard terminology as well and I?m pretty sure that staff and the board would actually follow the community?s lead here.
>
> Owen
>
>
>> On Sep 20, 2025, at 20:57, Mohibul Mahmud <mohibul.mahmud at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Thank you for the continued thoughtful discussion on this draft policy. The core challenge is balancing global precision (the ?LIR? term of art) with regional accessibility and consistency (the ?ISP? label used in ARIN?s operations and documentation).
>>
>> A practical example of how this balance is handled elsewhere comes from the DNS community. Both ICANN and the IETF distinguish between ?authoritative name server? (precise, technical role) and the broader term ?name server? or ?DNS server? (commonly used in general documentation). For example:
>>
>> ICANN?s glossary provides a specific definition of ?authoritative name server.?
>> https://www.icann.org/en/icann-acronyms-and-terms/authoritative-name-server-en?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=A-,authoritative%20name%20server,-A%20Domain%20Name
>>
>> IETF RFC 9499 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/> notes that both authoritative servers and resolvers are ?often called DNS servers or name servers, even though they serve different roles.?
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=often%20called%0A%20%20%20%22DNS%20servers%22%20and%20%22name%20servers%22%20even%20though%20they%20serve%20different%0A%20%20%20roles
>>
>> This model works because the precise role is rigorously defined, while the common terminology remains usable for general understanding.
>>
>> I suggest ARIN adopt a similar dual-term approach:
>> In NRPM text: Use ?ISP (LIR)? on first reference in sections, then ?ISP? with the clarified meaning.
>> Glossary definition: Add an NRPM glossary entry: ?ISP: For the purposes of this document, ISP is equivalent to Local Internet Registry (LIR).?
>> Operational consistency: Continue using ?ISP? in templates, guides, and ARIN?s website, backed by the clarified definition.
>>
>> This approach addresses the ambiguity directly. It acknowledges the global standard (LIR) while respecting ARIN?s established conventions (ISP), ensuring the policy is both precise for experts and accessible to newcomers.
>>
>> Would the authors and community be open to incorporating this kind of dual-term definition into the draft policy text?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Mohibul Mahmud
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 20, 2025 at 10:32?PM Jon Lewis <jlewis at lewis.org <mailto:jlewis at lewis.org>> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Sep 2025, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please explain what is confusing about the current usage of both LIR and ISP?
>>>> The following Blog post from ARIN seems perfectly straightforward to me;
>>>> https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/
>>>>
>>>> And the following page is about Requesting IP addresses.
>>>> https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They both seem to address the idea that LIR and ISP are effectively the same thing.
>>>
>>> Just a week ago, I asked if someone could give examples of how an ARIN
>>> member could be an LIR and not be an ISP, and was told "there are ways".
>>>
>>> The page referenced above is confusing, because it simultaneously says ISP
>>> = LIR and LIR != ISP. If an LIR is "generally" an ISP, then that suggests
>>> there are circumstances in which an LIR is not an ISP.
>>>
>>> >From the page:
>>>
>>> Let?s start by defining the elephant in the room: Local Internet Registry
>>> (LIR). In short, an LIR is an Internet Service Provider (ISP). As defined
>>> in ARIN?s Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM):
>>>
>>> ?A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns address
>>> space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are
>>> generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are
>>> primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.?
>>>
>>> You may find that ARIN and many members of the community use ISP and LIR
>>> interchangeably in conversation. So, when someone says ?ISP,? you can
>>> think of that as ?ISP/LIR.?
>>>
>>> So, which is it? ISP and LIR are the same thing, or all ISPs with direct
>>> allocations can be LIRs (but don't have to be), but not all LIRs are ISPs?
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route
>>> Blue Stream Fiber, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are
>>> _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key________________________________________________________
>>> ARIN-PPML
>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net <mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net>).
>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>>> Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if you experience any issues.
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
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