<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">So your suggestion in my estimation would be roughly equivalent to publishing all technical drawings and schematics showing measurements in inches, but redefining an inch to be 32mm and having a note somewhere explaining that throughout the drawing,<div>Inches are actually 32mm long instead of 25.4mm.</div><div><br></div><div>I don’t think this reduces confusion, but rather exacerbates and prolongs it. I truly don’t understand the advantage of not simply having a proper definition of LIR and noting that said definition includes, but is not limited to all classes of ISP. If you want to also define ISP for ARIN policy purposes as including what most people think of as an ISP plus everything else in the LIR category, sure, I don’t mind that, but let’s please standardize ARIN terminology with the rest of the world and user LIR.</div><div><br></div><div>While NRPM doesn’t control ARIN business practices, were we to do that, I’d certainly submit an ACSP encouraging the board and staff to adopt LIR as their standard terminology as well and I’m pretty sure that staff and the board would actually follow the community’s lead here.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Sep 20, 2025, at 20:57, Mohibul Mahmud <mohibul.mahmud@gmail.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr"><div style="direction:ltr">
<div style="direction:ltr;margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;width:10.0666in">
<div style="direction:ltr;margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;width:10.0666in"><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Hello everyone,</div><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Thank you for the
continued thoughtful discussion on this draft policy. The core challenge is
balancing <span style="font-weight:bold">global precision</span> (the “LIR”
term of art) with <span style="font-weight:bold">regional accessibility and
consistency</span> (the “ISP” label used in ARIN’s operations and
documentation).</div><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">A practical example
of how this balance is handled elsewhere comes from the DNS community. Both
ICANN and the IETF distinguish between <span style="font-weight:bold">“authoritative
name server”</span> (precise, technical role) and the broader term <span style="font-weight:bold">“name server” or “DNS server”</span> (commonly used in
general documentation). For example:</div><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p>
<ul type="disc" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:embed;margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
<li style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;vertical-align:middle"><span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">ICANN’s glossary provides a
specific definition of “authoritative name server.” </span></li>
</ul><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0in 0.375in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"><a href="https://www.icann.org/en/icann-acronyms-and-terms/authoritative-name-server-en?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=A-,authoritative%20name%20server,-A%20Domain%20Name">https://www.icann.org/en/icann-acronyms-and-terms/authoritative-name-server-en?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=A-,authoritative%20name%20server,-A%20Domain%20Name</a></div><p style="margin:0in 0in 0in 0.375in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p>
<ul type="disc" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:embed;margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
<li style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;vertical-align:middle"><span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">IETF </span><a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/"><span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">RFC 9499</span></a><span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> notes that both authoritative servers and
resolvers are “often called DNS servers or name servers, even though they
serve different roles.”</span></li>
</ul><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=often%20called%0A%20%20%20%22DNS%20servers%22%20and%20%22name%20servers%22%20even%20though%20they%20serve%20different%0A%20%20%20roles">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=often%20called%0A%20%20%20%22DNS%20servers%22%20and%20%22name%20servers%22%20even%20though%20they%20serve%20different%0A%20%20%20roles</a></div><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">This model works
because the precise role is rigorously defined, while the common terminology
remains usable for general understanding.</div><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">I suggest ARIN adopt
a similar dual-term approach:</div>
<ol type="1" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:embed;margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;font-weight:bold">
<li value="1" style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;vertical-align:middle"><span style="font-size:11pt">In NRPM text:</span><span style="font-weight:normal;font-size:11pt"> Use “ISP (LIR)” on first reference
in sections, then “ISP” with the clarified meaning.</span></li>
<li style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;vertical-align:middle"><span style="font-size:11pt">Glossary
definition:</span><span style="font-weight:normal;font-size:11pt"> Add an NRPM glossary entry: </span><span style="font-weight:normal;font-style:italic;font-size:11pt">“ISP: For the purposes of this document, ISP is
equivalent to Local Internet Registry (LIR).”</span></li>
<li style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;vertical-align:middle"><span style="font-size:11pt">Operational
consistency:</span><span style="font-weight:normal;font-size:11pt"> Continue using “ISP” in templates, guides, and ARIN’s
website, backed by the clarified definition.</span></li>
</ol><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">This approach
addresses the ambiguity directly. It acknowledges the global standard (LIR)
while respecting ARIN’s established conventions (ISP), ensuring the policy is
both precise for experts and accessible to newcomers.</div><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Would the authors
and community be open to incorporating this kind of dual-term definition into
the draft policy text?</div><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Best regards,</div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Mohibul Mahmud</div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep 20, 2025 at 10:32 PM Jon Lewis <<a href="mailto:jlewis@lewis.org">jlewis@lewis.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Fri, 19 Sep 2025, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
<br>
> Please explain what is confusing about the current usage of both LIR and ISP?<br>
> The following Blog post from ARIN seems perfectly straightforward to me;<br>
> <a href="https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/</a><br>
> <br>
> And the following page is about Requesting IP addresses.<br>
> <a href="https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> They both seem to address the idea that LIR and ISP are effectively the same thing.<br>
<br>
Just a week ago, I asked if someone could give examples of how an ARIN <br>
member could be an LIR and not be an ISP, and was told "there are ways".<br>
<br>
The page referenced above is confusing, because it simultaneously says ISP <br>
= LIR and LIR != ISP. If an LIR is "generally" an ISP, then that suggests <br>
there are circumstances in which an LIR is not an ISP.<br>
<br>
>From the page:<br>
<br>
Let’s start by defining the elephant in the room: Local Internet Registry<br>
(LIR). In short, an LIR is an Internet Service Provider (ISP). As defined<br>
in ARIN’s Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM):<br>
<br>
“A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns address<br>
space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are<br>
generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are<br>
primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.”<br>
<br>
You may find that ARIN and many members of the community use ISP and LIR<br>
interchangeably in conversation. So, when someone says “ISP,” you can<br>
think of that as “ISP/LIR.”<br>
<br>
So, which is it? ISP and LIR are the same thing, or all ISPs with direct <br>
allocations can be LIRs (but don't have to be), but not all LIRs are ISPs?<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route<br>
Blue Stream Fiber, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are<br>
_________ <a href="http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp</a> for PGP public key________________________________________________________<br>
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