[arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group

Fri May 5 15:17:17 EDT 2023

“I do not see a reason to add policy around leasing those IP addresses at this time.”

+1 to what Dustin wrote.

How would the leasing of waitlist space be detected? How would the prohibition be enforced? How much staff time would be involved?

It’s quite simple to deliver leased addresses through a tunnel. 

Dustin has pointed out how this prohibition would result in some addresses left unused as the recipient waits out the 60 months before they can sell the addresses they no longer need. Isn’t it our goal to have addresses in use?

Why do we allow virtually all other addresses to be leased out for direct rent-seeking profit, but not waiting-list addresses? Remember they were all distributed according to need. Needs change.

The monetary interest that would motivate a run on waiting list addresses also ensures a very limited supply of these addresses will be distributed. Companies normally don’t return valuable resources to ARIN when they can sell them instead, and they usually pay their ARIN bills in order to maintain their claim on this value. Sometimes they lease them out to pay the ARIN bills while they bide their time. The horror!

I believe the staff has reported that the waiting list is expected to shrink and waiting times increase, and this makes sense to me. In any case the profit motive for getting free 4.1.8 address space mainly comes from the resale of it in five years.  A leasing prohibition won’t change that incentive.

And those seeking to profit have to demonstrate a justified need to receive the addresses in the first place, unless you limit your profits to what comes from receiving the minimum sized /24.

This is a miniscule if not imaginary problem that doesn’t require more NRPM verbiage, nor turning ARIN into a monitor of post-allocation usage for the first time.

From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> On Behalf Of Dustin Moses
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2023 12:28 PM
To: arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group

According to ARIN policy, the maximum allocation size an organization can get is a /22 from the waitlist. Considering also that an organization can only have 1 waitlist request at a time and how long it takes to get an allocation on that waitlist, I don't see a lot of incentive for a for-profit entity to do this, especially over and over.

I believe the waitlist parameters inhibit organizations do this for a money making scheme.

Also, since the IP market already exists, what if an organization who gets an allocation from the waitlist, changes its priorities after a few months and decides to lease that space to another org? They cannot by policy 4.1.8 transfer that space to another organization for 60 months, unless they went through 8.2 rules which are about re-organizing/merging. Enacting a policy explicitly denying leasing after a waitlist fulfillment would be tying the hands of that organization and thus no-one benefits here.

I do not see a reason to add policy around leasing those IP addresses at this time.

 <https://intermaxnetworks.com/> 

Dustin Moses

Network Engineer II

o:  <tel:208-762-8065> 208-762-8065

d: (208) 758‑0489

w:  <http://intermaxnetworks.com/> intermaxnetworks.com

a: 

7400 N Mineral Drive Suite 300

, 

Coeur d'Alene

, 

ID

83815

 <https://twitter.com/imaxnetworks> 

 <https://www.facebook.com/ImaxNetworks/> 

 <https://linkedin.com/company/intermaxnetworks> 

-----Original Message-----
From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> > On Behalf Of arin-ppml-request at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml-request at arin.net> 
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2023 9:00 AM
To: arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net> 
Subject: ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 215, Issue 2

Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to
arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net> 

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
arin-ppml-request at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml-request at arin.net> 

You can reach the person managing the list at
arin-ppml-owner at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml-owner at arin.net> 

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..."

Today's Topics:

1. Policy Experience Report Working Group Leasing Question
(WOOD Alison * DAS)
2. Re: Policy Experience Report Working Group Leasing Question
(Michael B. Williams)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 15:54:17 +0000
From: WOOD Alison * DAS <Alison.WOOD at das.oregon.gov <mailto:Alison.WOOD at das.oregon.gov> >
To: "arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net> " <arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net> >
Subject: [arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group Leasing
Question
Message-ID:
<SA1PR09MB8318E80F3232E2E60616C26CC7729 at SA1PR09MB8318.namprd09.prod.outlook.com <mailto:SA1PR09MB8318E80F3232E2E60616C26CC7729 at SA1PR09MB8318.namprd09.prod.outlook.com> >

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Good morning PPML!

I would like community feedback on the leasing of ip space that is obtained from the waitlist. Please let me know what you think and if a policy proposal would be warranted.

Thank you!

-Alison
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20230505/047ba92e/attachment-0001.htm>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 11:58:03 -0400
From: "Michael B. Williams" <Michael.Williams at glexia.com <mailto:Michael.Williams at glexia.com> >
To: "WOOD Alison * DAS" <Alison.WOOD at das.oregon.gov <mailto:Alison.WOOD at das.oregon.gov> >
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net> " <arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net> >
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group
Leasing Question
Message-ID:
<CAGj=18Hc0yg1EREZm7zhrTW945iTOGQxiKpRpjutEkxg1bYB8A at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAGj=18Hc0yg1EREZm7zhrTW945iTOGQxiKpRpjutEkxg1bYB8A at mail.gmail.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Are you asking if an entity were to obtain IP space from the waitlist, should they be permitted to lease it to someone else? My answer is a resounding no. That defeats the whole purpose of the waitlist. Entities should not be encouraged to hoard IP space because ARIN will subsidise the cost, allowing a for-profit entity to make money from obtaining IP space.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20230505/193a607e/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 5272 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20230505/193a607e/attachment-0001.p7s>

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

_______________________________________________
ARIN-PPML mailing list
ARIN-PPML at arin.net <mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net> 
https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml

------------------------------

End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 215, Issue 2
*****************************************

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20230505/bb9f6488/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.png
Type: image/png
Size: 44913 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20230505/bb9f6488/attachment.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.png
Type: image/png
Size: 397 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20230505/bb9f6488/attachment-0001.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.png
Type: image/png
Size: 324 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20230505/bb9f6488/attachment-0002.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image004.png
Type: image/png
Size: 354 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20230505/bb9f6488/attachment-0003.png>