[arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group

Fri May 5 15:54:25 EDT 2023

“Why do we allow virtually all other addresses to be leased out for direct rent-seeking profit, but not waiting-list addresses?”

I have to concur with this. There is no precedent to treat non-waitlist IPv4 addresses in regards to leasing. Additionally, is there an additional burden here for ARIN to police IPv4 addresses post allocation? I don’t think policy wise, that it is a smart idea.

Also, I don’t see anywhere in the existing NRPM where an leasing is defined. If there was new policy added to address this related to waitlist Ips in section 4.1.8, leasing would also need to be defined additionally in the NRPM, likely in section 2.

Dustin Moses
Network Engineer II
Intermax Networks
o: 208-762-8065 d: (208) 758-0489
From: Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com>
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2023 12:17 PM
To: Dustin Moses <dmoses at intermaxteam.com>; arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group

“I do not see a reason to add policy around leasing those IP addresses at this time.”
+1 to what Dustin wrote.
How would the leasing of waitlist space be detected? How would the prohibition be enforced? How much staff time would be involved?
It’s quite simple to deliver leased addresses through a tunnel.
Dustin has pointed out how this prohibition would result in some addresses left unused as the recipient waits out the 60 months before they can sell the addresses they no longer need. Isn’t it our goal to have addresses in use?
Why do we allow virtually all other addresses to be leased out for direct rent-seeking profit, but not waiting-list addresses? Remember they were all distributed according to need. Needs change.
The monetary interest that would motivate a run on waiting list addresses also ensures a very limited supply of these addresses will be distributed. Companies normally don’t return valuable resources to ARIN when they can sell them instead, and they usually pay their ARIN bills in order to maintain their claim on this value. Sometimes they lease them out to pay the ARIN bills while they bide their time. The horror!
I believe the staff has reported that the waiting list is expected to shrink and waiting times increase, and this makes sense to me. In any case the profit motive for getting free 4.1.8 address space mainly comes from the resale of it in five years.  A leasing prohibition won’t change that incentive.
And those seeking to profit have to demonstrate a justified need to receive the addresses in the first place, unless you limit your profits to what comes from receiving the minimum sized /24.
This is a miniscule if not imaginary problem that doesn’t require more NRPM verbiage, nor turning ARIN into a monitor of post-allocation usage for the first time.

From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>> On Behalf Of Dustin Moses
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2023 12:28 PM
To: arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group

According to ARIN policy, the maximum allocation size an organization can get is a /22 from the waitlist. Considering also that an organization can only have 1 waitlist request at a time and how long it takes to get an allocation on that waitlist, I don't see a lot of incentive for a for-profit entity to do this, especially over and over.

I believe the waitlist parameters inhibit organizations do this for a money making scheme.

Also, since the IP market already exists, what if an organization who gets an allocation from the waitlist, changes its priorities after a few months and decides to lease that space to another org? They cannot by policy 4.1.8 transfer that space to another organization for 60 months, unless they went through 8.2 rules which are about re-organizing/merging. Enacting a policy explicitly denying leasing after a waitlist fulfillment would be tying the hands of that organization and thus no-one benefits here.

I do not see a reason to add policy around leasing those IP addresses at this time.
[Intermax Networks]<https://intermaxnetworks.com/>
Dustin Moses
Network Engineer II
o: 208-762-8065<tel:208-762-8065>

d: (208) 758‑0489
w: intermaxnetworks.com<http://intermaxnetworks.com/>
a:
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Today's Topics:

1. Policy Experience Report Working Group Leasing Question
(WOOD Alison * DAS)
2. Re: Policy Experience Report Working Group Leasing Question
(Michael B. Williams)

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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 15:54:17 +0000
From: WOOD Alison * DAS <Alison.WOOD at das.oregon.gov<mailto:Alison.WOOD at das.oregon.gov>>
To: "arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group Leasing
Question
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Good morning PPML!

I would like community feedback on the leasing of ip space that is obtained from the waitlist. Please let me know what you think and if a policy proposal would be warranted.

Thank you!

-Alison
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 11:58:03 -0400
From: "Michael B. Williams" <Michael.Williams at glexia.com<mailto:Michael.Williams at glexia.com>>
To: "WOOD Alison * DAS" <Alison.WOOD at das.oregon.gov<mailto:Alison.WOOD at das.oregon.gov>>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group
Leasing Question
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Are you asking if an entity were to obtain IP space from the waitlist, should they be permitted to lease it to someone else? My answer is a resounding no. That defeats the whole purpose of the waitlist. Entities should not be encouraged to hoard IP space because ARIN will subsidise the cost, allowing a for-profit entity to make money from obtaining IP space.
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