[arin-ppml] Change of Use and ARIN (was: Re: AFRINIC And The Stability Of The Internet Number Registry System)
Lu Heng
h.lu at anytimechinese.com
Fri Sep 3 03:17:29 EDT 2021
Hi
<scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午2:49写道：
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午1:12写道：
> >
> >
> > > No one is claiming anything here, everyone is paying a fair
> > market price for
> > > what they are using in a scare market. Owning an asset does
> > not constitute a
> > > crime.
> >
> > Being allocated IP addresses from a RIR does not constitute
> > ownership of
> > an asset, under any circumstances.
> >
> >
> > Who decides this? All those asset purchase agreement wasn’t signed out of
> > blue.
>
> Agreements made among men and women based on erroneous premises are no
> more relevant that two people agreeing that the sky contains no stars;
> either they are both blind, they are both fooling only themselves, or one
> is dishonest, fooling the other, who is blind.
And why make you the authority to decide what is asset what is not?
Last time I check those power is with court.
>
>
> >
> > Number itself might not constitute asset. However registration in an
> unique
> > database surely is.
> >
>
> Said registration comes with responsibilites as well as rights. Consider
> it more a position of trust to manage the assets ethically. Such a
> position can be revoked, if that trust is broken.
That is up for the court to decide, it is uncharted territory if RIR have
such power, I think one day, a court case somewhere in the world will
decide as such and things will be more clear.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > Just because you no longer get land for free from the west,
> > doesn’t
> > > mean anyone today leasing you a house in Bay Area evil.
> > Capitalism rewards
> > > those who come first, in any market.
> >
> > Capitalism, from my experience, rewards many of the worst
> > qualities in
> > mankind; greed, selfishness, and profit over all things.
> > Unfettered, it
> > will be civilization's undoing, ecologically. Meanwhile, the
> > strong will
> > simply continue to steal from the weak, and claim themselves
> > pioneers.
> >
> >
> > That is an accusation without base. Rich must be stealing from the poor,
> a
> > perfect communist revolution quote.
>
> Where you see accusation, I see only analysis from a lifetime of
> observation and participation.
>
> >
> > Most of market are started by pioneers—and some of them are become very
> rich
> > in the process—bill gates, Steve Jobs, for example.
>
> I suggest that you should contemplate the film "The Pirates of Silicon
> Valley" for a bit of historical perspective on these two figures. You may
> find that you just proved my point.
No, I will not, I have my view on those two persons and you title yours—I
don’t need some film to firm such view.
>
>
> >
> > You experience clearly is not shared in this society,
>
> To which society do you refer?
>
> > which form of society
> > you are advocating?
>
> What makes you assume I am advocating for anything? I was simply refuting
> your point that capitalism rewards pioneers. Nikola Tesla, and a great
> many other true pioneers might disagree with you, were they alive and here
> to do so.
Capitalism rewards pioneers, does not means it rewards all pioneers.
>
>
> > Capitalism can be flawed except it is the best mankind
> > have discover so far.
>
> Perhaps, perhaps not. You are, however, entitled to your opinion. Be
> aware that stating your opinion does not constitute fact.
>
I never claim it is fact. But what is your opinion of best form of society?
Communism?
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:45写道：
> > > There is but one stream from which to drink, which
> > belongs to
> > > everyone.
> > > We simply ensure that the weakest may also drink, by
> > preventing
> > > the
> > > strong from damming the stream, and claiming all the
> > water to be
> > > theirs.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:
> > >
> > > > Taking out the market and middle man, have one central
> > body
> > > distribute all
> > > > resources and reclaim them when not needed.
> > > >
> > > > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with millions
> > life
> > > dead to proof it
> > > > won’t work?
> > > >
> > > > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日
> > 周五下午12:03写道：
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > Agreed. The middleman with no infrastructure
> > business
> > > model is
> > > > by
> > > > it's very nature parasitic.
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Surely people benefiting from IP leasing will
> > keep
> > > trying to
> > > > make it
> > > > > 'normal', acceptable and part of day by day as
> > if
> > > these
> > > > middleman were
> > > > > facilitating something for the good of the
> > internet
> > > while it
> > > > is the
> > > > > opposite.
> > > > > This practice serves exclusively to the
> > financial
> > > benefit of
> > > > those who lease
> > > > > (but are not building any Internet
> > Infrastructure) and
> > > of
> > > > course to the
> > > > > middleman not the lessee.
> > > > >
> > > > > How can it be beneficial to lessee that has to
> > pay
> > > more they
> > > > would have to
> > > > > spend if those very same resources were
> > recovered by
> > > the RIR
> > > > and
> > > > > re-distributed directly to that same
> > organization ?
> > > > >
> > > > > It doesn't matter much how the scenario
> > changed in the
> > > past
> > > > and recent
> > > > > years. There are principles and fairness to be
> > > observed and
> > > > they should not
> > > > > change in order to adjust the interest of
> > these few
> > > ones who
> > > > speculate a
> > > > > resource that doesn't belong to them and
> > wasn't
> > > justified for
> > > > that propose.
> > > > > It is just easier the RIR to recover them and
> > do the
> > > right
> > > > thing, for harder
> > > > > and stressful it can be it is the right thing
> > to be
> > > done.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't mean to sound rude to those who
> > disagree with
> > > me, but
> > > > I really hope
> > > > > RIRs in general revoke as much as possible
> > addresses
> > > clearly
> > > > being used for
> > > > > leasing where the resource holder only
> > speculates
> > > them,
> > > > doesn't build any
> > > > > Internet infrastructure and where in many
> > cases don't
> > > even
> > > > exist
> > > > > connectivity between the current resource
> > holder and
> > > the
> > > > lessee and
> > > > > re-allocate them to those who truly justify.
> > This has
> > > nothing
> > > > to do with
> > > > > interfere in the business of that resource
> > holder.
> > > > >
> > > > > Often those supporting this misuse of IP
> > resources try
> > > to
> > > > paint a picture
> > > > > that those resources are organization's
> > property and
> > > the RIR
> > > > should be
> > > > > unable to do anything about that. Not being a
> > > irrevocable
> > > > properly
> > > > > organizations own explanations and clarity
> > about how
> > > they use
> > > > it according
> > > > > to the what is in the best interest of all
> > those who
> > > developed
> > > > and agreed
> > > > > the current rules in place and the
> > organization who
> > > has the
> > > > duty to inspect
> > > > > that. Regardless the commercial model of an
> > > organization it
> > > > must adhere to
> > > > > the current rules and contract they previously
> > signed,
> > > not the
> > > > other way
> > > > > round.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also the understanding that a LIR leases IP
> > addresses
> > > is quiet
> > > > wrong. If
> > > > > they are build Internet infrastructure,
> > provide
> > > connectivity
> > > > and charge
> > > > > administrative fees for the addresses they
> > allocate to
> > > that
> > > > customer there
> > > > > is nothing wrong with it.
> > > > > I personally can understand the permanent
> > Transfer of
> > > > resources and that has
> > > > > been a more natural and fair movement and why
> > > community agreed
> > > > on that on
> > > > > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful picture
> > painted
> > > IP
> > > > leasing brings no
> > > > > good to lessee and to the Internet if things
> > can be
> > > done in
> > > > the proper way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > Fernando
> > > > >
> > > > > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F. Guilmette
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > In message
> > > <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@iptrading.com>,
> > > > > "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > We tried the method you've espoused below for
> > thirty
> > > years and
> > > > > the result were a huge amount of wasted
> > address space.
> > > Once
> > > > the market
> > > > > was adopted, many of those addresses found a
> > useful
> > > place in
> > > > the routing
> > > > > table.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22. Mike, you're
> > > absolutely right
> > > > that once
> > > > > there was a free market, a lot of stuff came
> > off the
> > > shelves
> > > > and started
> > > > > to be used productively. But can any of us
> > say with
> > > > confidence that once
> > > > > there was a free market, a lot of this
> > commodity
> > > (IPv4) that
> > > > was sitting
> > > > > on shelves didn't just stay there -because- of
> > the
> > > open and
> > > > free market...
> > > > > because the "owners" of those blocks
> > effectively
> > > became
> > > > speculators, just
> > > > > waiting arond for the scarcity to become more
> > acute,
> > > and for
> > > > the price to
> > > > > go up?
> > > > >
> > > > > (I confess that I never in my life took an
> > economics
> > > class,
> > > > but it seems
> > > > > to me that the entire field is chock full of
> > > head-scratching
> > > > conundrums
> > > > > like this... situation where you are damned if
> > you do
> > > and
> > > > damned if you
> > > > > don't.)
> > > > >
> > > > > The free pool era is dying, let's put a fork
> > in it as
> > > quickly
> > > > as
> > > > > possible We've seen the corruption engendered
> > by the
> > > bait of
> > > > the
> > > > > free pool in multiple registries now,
> > including our
> > > own.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion on your
> > part
> > > extend
> > > > also to IPv6?
> > > > >
> > > > > Your old-fashioned method of address
> > distribution
> > > would get
> > > > some
> > > > > addresses to those in need, I will concede
> > that.
> > > However, so
> > > > will
> > > > > leasing addresses, with that demonstration of
> > need
> > > being the
> > > > lease
> > > > > payment. Will you concede that those who pay
> > to lease
> > > > addresses need
> > > > > them?
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if nobody else does, I certainly will.
> > But of
> > > course
> > > > that's not the
> > > > > only issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > The current Cloud Innovation v. AFRINIC thing
> > is in
> > > some ways
> > > > confusing as
> > > > > hell because it has brought to a head
> > -multiple-
> > > long-standing
> > > > issues that
> > > > > have then gotten all tangled up with one
> > another,
> > > making it
> > > > difficult for
> > > > > anybody to tease apart the various separate
> > issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > One of these is what might be called "equity",
> > i.e.
> > > the social
> > > > desire to
> > > > > help Africa, a continent and a people who have
> > been on
> > > the
> > > > receiving end
> > > > > of so much exploitation and malevolent evil,
> > over the
> > > > centuries, at the
> > > > > hands of others.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another issue is the right and proper role of
> > RIRs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Last but not leas (and perhaps the most
> > troubling and
> > > most
> > > > difficult to
> > > > > crack open in a way that does not merely
> > reveal our
> > > individual
> > > > biases) is
> > > > > the question of the proper role of what I will
> > just
> > > call
> > > > "speculators"
> > > > > within any free market.
> > > > >
> > > > > Contrary to what some might say, I think that
> > when it
> > > comes to
> > > > IPv4 addresse
> > > > > s
> > > > > at least, it most certainly -is- possible to
> > > distinguish
> > > > "speculators" from
> > > > > actual and legitimate end users and/or
> > legitimate
> > > brokers &
> > > > middlemen such
> > > > > as yourself. As I understand it, the current
> > system
> > > requires
> > > > people to
> > > > > document their equipment purchases. No
> > equipment
> > > purchases?
> > > > You're almost
> > > > > certainly just a speculator.
> > > > >
> > > > > So then the question becomes two-fold: (1) Do
> > we want
> > > > speculators in this
> > > > > marketplace? and (2) Is there any actually
> > feasible
> > > way to
> > > > keep them out
> > > > > of the "free" market even if the collective
> > "we"
> > > firmly
> > > > decided that we
> > > > > wanted to do so?
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally don't have answers to any of
> > these
> > > questions. I
> > > > would only
> > > > > offer up the observation that I am aware of at
> > least a
> > > few
> > > > speculators at
> > > > > this moment in time, and it would be an
> > understatement
> > > for me
> > > > to say that
> > > > > their actions seem to me to be both glaringly
> > untoward
> > > and
> > > > also unhelpful.
> > > > > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether
> > "speculators" are
> > > a
> > > > necessary and even
> > > > > useful component of a free market, I cannot
> > say they
> > > are not.
> > > > And it seems
> > > > > I may not be alone in leaving open this
> > possibility:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosi
> > o
> > > n-
> > > > a
> > > > >
> > > nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > rfg
> > > > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > ARIN-PPML
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > ARIN-PPML
> > > > You are receiving this message because you are
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > Kind regards.
> > > > Lu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Kind regards.
> > > Lu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Kind regards.
> > Lu
> >
> >
> >
--
--
Kind regards.
Lu
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