[arin-ppml] Change of Use and ARIN (was: Re: AFRINIC And The Stability Of The Internet Number Registry System)
scott at solarnetone.org
scott at solarnetone.org
Fri Sep 3 02:49:11 EDT 2021
On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:
>
>
> <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午1:12写道：
>
>
> > No one is claiming anything here, everyone is paying a fair
> market price for
> > what they are using in a scare market. Owning an asset does
> not constitute a
> > crime.
>
> Being allocated IP addresses from a RIR does not constitute
> ownership of
> an asset, under any circumstances.
>
>
> Who decides this? All those asset purchase agreement wasn’t signed out of
> blue.
Agreements made among men and women based on erroneous premises are no
more relevant that two people agreeing that the sky contains no stars;
either they are both blind, they are both fooling only themselves, or one
is dishonest, fooling the other, who is blind.
>
> Number itself might not constitute asset. However registration in an unique
> database surely is.
>
Said registration comes with responsibilites as well as rights. Consider
it more a position of trust to manage the assets ethically. Such a
position can be revoked, if that trust is broken.
>
>
>
> > Just because you no longer get land for free from the west,
> doesn’t
> > mean anyone today leasing you a house in Bay Area evil.
> Capitalism rewards
> > those who come first, in any market.
>
> Capitalism, from my experience, rewards many of the worst
> qualities in
> mankind; greed, selfishness, and profit over all things.
> Unfettered, it
> will be civilization's undoing, ecologically. Meanwhile, the
> strong will
> simply continue to steal from the weak, and claim themselves
> pioneers.
>
>
> That is an accusation without base. Rich must be stealing from the poor, a
> perfect communist revolution quote.
Where you see accusation, I see only analysis from a lifetime of
observation and participation.
>
> Most of market are started by pioneers—and some of them are become very rich
> in the process—bill gates, Steve Jobs, for example.
I suggest that you should contemplate the film "The Pirates of Silicon
Valley" for a bit of historical perspective on these two figures. You may
find that you just proved my point.
>
> You experience clearly is not shared in this society,
To which society do you refer?
> which form of society
> you are advocating?
What makes you assume I am advocating for anything? I was simply refuting
your point that capitalism rewards pioneers. Nikola Tesla, and a great
many other true pioneers might disagree with you, were they alive and here
to do so.
> Capitalism can be flawed except it is the best mankind
> have discover so far.
Perhaps, perhaps not. You are, however, entitled to your opinion. Be
aware that stating your opinion does not constitute fact.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:45写道：
> > There is but one stream from which to drink, which
> belongs to
> > everyone.
> > We simply ensure that the weakest may also drink, by
> preventing
> > the
> > strong from damming the stream, and claiming all the
> water to be
> > theirs.
> >
> > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:
> >
> > > Taking out the market and middle man, have one central
> body
> > distribute all
> > > resources and reclaim them when not needed.
> > >
> > > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with millions
> life
> > dead to proof it
> > > won’t work?
> > >
> > > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日
> 周五下午12:03写道：
> > > +1
> > >
> > > Agreed. The middleman with no infrastructure
> business
> > model is
> > > by
> > > it's very nature parasitic.
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Surely people benefiting from IP leasing will
> keep
> > trying to
> > > make it
> > > > 'normal', acceptable and part of day by day as
> if
> > these
> > > middleman were
> > > > facilitating something for the good of the
> internet
> > while it
> > > is the
> > > > opposite.
> > > > This practice serves exclusively to the
> financial
> > benefit of
> > > those who lease
> > > > (but are not building any Internet
> Infrastructure) and
> > of
> > > course to the
> > > > middleman not the lessee.
> > > >
> > > > How can it be beneficial to lessee that has to
> pay
> > more they
> > > would have to
> > > > spend if those very same resources were
> recovered by
> > the RIR
> > > and
> > > > re-distributed directly to that same
> organization ?
> > > >
> > > > It doesn't matter much how the scenario
> changed in the
> > past
> > > and recent
> > > > years. There are principles and fairness to be
> > observed and
> > > they should not
> > > > change in order to adjust the interest of
> these few
> > ones who
> > > speculate a
> > > > resource that doesn't belong to them and
> wasn't
> > justified for
> > > that propose.
> > > > It is just easier the RIR to recover them and
> do the
> > right
> > > thing, for harder
> > > > and stressful it can be it is the right thing
> to be
> > done.
> > > >
> > > > I don't mean to sound rude to those who
> disagree with
> > me, but
> > > I really hope
> > > > RIRs in general revoke as much as possible
> addresses
> > clearly
> > > being used for
> > > > leasing where the resource holder only
> speculates
> > them,
> > > doesn't build any
> > > > Internet infrastructure and where in many
> cases don't
> > even
> > > exist
> > > > connectivity between the current resource
> holder and
> > the
> > > lessee and
> > > > re-allocate them to those who truly justify.
> This has
> > nothing
> > > to do with
> > > > interfere in the business of that resource
> holder.
> > > >
> > > > Often those supporting this misuse of IP
> resources try
> > to
> > > paint a picture
> > > > that those resources are organization's
> property and
> > the RIR
> > > should be
> > > > unable to do anything about that. Not being a
> > irrevocable
> > > properly
> > > > organizations own explanations and clarity
> about how
> > they use
> > > it according
> > > > to the what is in the best interest of all
> those who
> > developed
> > > and agreed
> > > > the current rules in place and the
> organization who
> > has the
> > > duty to inspect
> > > > that. Regardless the commercial model of an
> > organization it
> > > must adhere to
> > > > the current rules and contract they previously
> signed,
> > not the
> > > other way
> > > > round.
> > > >
> > > > Also the understanding that a LIR leases IP
> addresses
> > is quiet
> > > wrong. If
> > > > they are build Internet infrastructure,
> provide
> > connectivity
> > > and charge
> > > > administrative fees for the addresses they
> allocate to
> > that
> > > customer there
> > > > is nothing wrong with it.
> > > > I personally can understand the permanent
> Transfer of
> > > resources and that has
> > > > been a more natural and fair movement and why
> > community agreed
> > > on that on
> > > > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful picture
> painted
> > IP
> > > leasing brings no
> > > > good to lessee and to the Internet if things
> can be
> > done in
> > > the proper way.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Fernando
> > > >
> > > > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F. Guilmette
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In message
> > <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@iptrading.com>,
> > > > "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We tried the method you've espoused below for
> thirty
> > years and
> > > > the result were a huge amount of wasted
> address space.
> > Once
> > > the market
> > > > was adopted, many of those addresses found a
> useful
> > place in
> > > the routing
> > > > table.
> > > >
> > > > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22. Mike, you're
> > absolutely right
> > > that once
> > > > there was a free market, a lot of stuff came
> off the
> > shelves
> > > and started
> > > > to be used productively. But can any of us
> say with
> > > confidence that once
> > > > there was a free market, a lot of this
> commodity
> > (IPv4) that
> > > was sitting
> > > > on shelves didn't just stay there -because- of
> the
> > open and
> > > free market...
> > > > because the "owners" of those blocks
> effectively
> > became
> > > speculators, just
> > > > waiting arond for the scarcity to become more
> acute,
> > and for
> > > the price to
> > > > go up?
> > > >
> > > > (I confess that I never in my life took an
> economics
> > class,
> > > but it seems
> > > > to me that the entire field is chock full of
> > head-scratching
> > > conundrums
> > > > like this... situation where you are damned if
> you do
> > and
> > > damned if you
> > > > don't.)
> > > >
> > > > The free pool era is dying, let's put a fork
> in it as
> > quickly
> > > as
> > > > possible We've seen the corruption engendered
> by the
> > bait of
> > > the
> > > > free pool in multiple registries now,
> including our
> > own.
> > > >
> > > > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion on your
> part
> > extend
> > > also to IPv6?
> > > >
> > > > Your old-fashioned method of address
> distribution
> > would get
> > > some
> > > > addresses to those in need, I will concede
> that.
> > However, so
> > > will
> > > > leasing addresses, with that demonstration of
> need
> > being the
> > > lease
> > > > payment. Will you concede that those who pay
> to lease
> > > addresses need
> > > > them?
> > > >
> > > > Even if nobody else does, I certainly will.
> But of
> > course
> > > that's not the
> > > > only issue.
> > > >
> > > > The current Cloud Innovation v. AFRINIC thing
> is in
> > some ways
> > > confusing as
> > > > hell because it has brought to a head
> -multiple-
> > long-standing
> > > issues that
> > > > have then gotten all tangled up with one
> another,
> > making it
> > > difficult for
> > > > anybody to tease apart the various separate
> issues.
> > > >
> > > > One of these is what might be called "equity",
> i.e.
> > the social
> > > desire to
> > > > help Africa, a continent and a people who have
> been on
> > the
> > > receiving end
> > > > of so much exploitation and malevolent evil,
> over the
> > > centuries, at the
> > > > hands of others.
> > > >
> > > > Another issue is the right and proper role of
> RIRs.
> > > >
> > > > Last but not leas (and perhaps the most
> troubling and
> > most
> > > difficult to
> > > > crack open in a way that does not merely
> reveal our
> > individual
> > > biases) is
> > > > the question of the proper role of what I will
> just
> > call
> > > "speculators"
> > > > within any free market.
> > > >
> > > > Contrary to what some might say, I think that
> when it
> > comes to
> > > IPv4 addresse
> > > > s
> > > > at least, it most certainly -is- possible to
> > distinguish
> > > "speculators" from
> > > > actual and legitimate end users and/or
> legitimate
> > brokers &
> > > middlemen such
> > > > as yourself. As I understand it, the current
> system
> > requires
> > > people to
> > > > document their equipment purchases. No
> equipment
> > purchases?
> > > You're almost
> > > > certainly just a speculator.
> > > >
> > > > So then the question becomes two-fold: (1) Do
> we want
> > > speculators in this
> > > > marketplace? and (2) Is there any actually
> feasible
> > way to
> > > keep them out
> > > > of the "free" market even if the collective
> "we"
> > firmly
> > > decided that we
> > > > wanted to do so?
> > > >
> > > > I personally don't have answers to any of
> these
> > questions. I
> > > would only
> > > > offer up the observation that I am aware of at
> least a
> > few
> > > speculators at
> > > > this moment in time, and it would be an
> understatement
> > for me
> > > to say that
> > > > their actions seem to me to be both glaringly
> untoward
> > and
> > > also unhelpful.
> > > > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether
> "speculators" are
> > a
> > > necessary and even
> > > > useful component of a free market, I cannot
> say they
> > are not.
> > > And it seems
> > > > I may not be alone in leaving open this
> possibility:
> > > >
> > > >https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosi
> o
> > n-
> > > a
> > > >
> > nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > rfg
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > ARIN-PPML
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> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ARIN-PPML
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> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Kind regards.
> > > Lu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Kind regards.
> > Lu
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> --
> Kind regards.
> Lu
>
>
>
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