[arin-ppml] Change of Use and ARIN (was: Re: AFRINIC And The Stability Of The Internet Number Registry System)

scott at solarnetone.org scott at solarnetone.org
Fri Sep 3 02:51:38 EDT 2021


You believe that augmenting a natural scarcity with a artificial one born 
of resource hoarding will lower consumer prices and improve quality?  If 
so, I have some bridges for sale that you may be interested in.

On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Cheken Chetty wrote:

> I agree with Lu, while some of the statements about the cons against
> capitalism is true, there are various pros for it as well such as the
> encouragement of competition, lower consumer prices and better product
> quality and they do in some cases outweigh the bad in my opinion. 
> Regards
> 
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, 08:09 Lu Heng, <h.lu at anytimechinese.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午1:12写道:
> 
>
>       > No one is claiming anything here, everyone is paying a
>       fair market price for
>       > what they are using in a scare market. Owning an asset
>       does not constitute a
>       > crime.
>
>       Being allocated IP addresses from a RIR does not
>       constitute ownership of
>       an asset, under any circumstances.
> 
> 
> Who decides this? All those asset purchase agreement wasn’t signed out
> of blue.
> 
> Number itself might not constitute asset. However registration in an
> unique database surely is.
> 
> 
> 
>
>       > Just because you no longer get land for free from the
>       west, doesn’t
>       > mean anyone today leasing you a house in Bay Area evil.
>       Capitalism rewards
>       > those who come first, in any market.
>
>       Capitalism, from my experience, rewards many of the worst
>       qualities in
>       mankind; greed, selfishness, and profit over all things. 
>       Unfettered, it
>       will be civilization's undoing, ecologically.  Meanwhile,
>       the strong will
>       simply continue to steal from the weak, and claim
>       themselves pioneers.
> 
> 
> That is an accusation without base. Rich must be stealing from the
> poor, a perfect communist revolution quote.
> 
> Most of market are started by pioneers—and some of them are become
> very rich in the process—bill gates, Steve Jobs, for example. 
> 
> You experience clearly is not shared in this society, which form of
> society you are advocating? Capitalism can be flawed except it is the
> best mankind have discover so far.
> 
> 
>
>       >
>       >
>       > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日
>       周五下午12:45写道:
>       >       There is but one stream from which to drink, which
>       belongs to
>       >       everyone.
>       >       We simply ensure that the weakest may also drink,
>       by preventing
>       >       the
>       >       strong from damming the stream, and claiming all
>       the water to be
>       >       theirs.
>       >
>       >       On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:
>       >
>       >       > Taking out the market and middle man, have one
>       central body
>       >       distribute all
>       >       > resources and reclaim them when not needed.
>       >       >
>       >       > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with
>       millions life
>       >       dead to proof it
>       >       > won’t work?
>       >       >
>       >       > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日
>       周五下午12:03写道:
>       >       >       +1
>       >       >
>       >       >       Agreed.  The middleman with no
>       infrastructure business
>       >       model is
>       >       >       by
>       >       >       it's very nature parasitic.
>       >       >
>       >       >       Scott
>       >       >
>       >       >       On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani
>       wrote:
>       >       >
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Surely people benefiting from IP leasing
>       will keep
>       >       trying to
>       >       >       make it
>       >       >       > 'normal', acceptable and part of day by
>       day as if
>       >       these
>       >       >       middleman were
>       >       >       > facilitating something for the good of
>       the internet
>       >       while it
>       >       >       is the
>       >       >       > opposite.
>       >       >       > This practice serves exclusively to the
>       financial
>       >       benefit of
>       >       >       those who lease
>       >       >       > (but are not building any Internet
>       Infrastructure) and
>       >       of
>       >       >       course to the
>       >       >       > middleman not the lessee.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > How can it be beneficial to lessee that
>       has to pay
>       >       more they
>       >       >       would have to
>       >       >       > spend if those very same resources were
>       recovered by
>       >       the RIR
>       >       >       and
>       >       >       > re-distributed directly to that same
>       organization ?
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > It doesn't matter much how the scenario
>       changed in the
>       >       past
>       >       >       and recent
>       >       >       > years. There are principles and fairness
>       to be
>       >       observed and
>       >       >       they should not
>       >       >       > change in order to adjust the interest
>       of these few
>       >       ones who
>       >       >       speculate a
>       >       >       > resource that doesn't belong to them and
>       wasn't
>       >       justified for
>       >       >       that propose.
>       >       >       > It is just easier the RIR to recover
>       them and do the
>       >       right
>       >       >       thing, for harder
>       >       >       > and stressful it can be it is the right
>       thing to be
>       >       done.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > I don't mean to sound rude to those who
>       disagree with
>       >       me, but
>       >       >       I really hope
>       >       >       > RIRs in general revoke as much as
>       possible addresses
>       >       clearly
>       >       >       being used for
>       >       >       > leasing where the resource holder only
>       speculates
>       >       them,
>       >       >       doesn't build any
>       >       >       > Internet infrastructure and where in
>       many cases don't
>       >       even
>       >       >       exist
>       >       >       > connectivity between the current
>       resource holder and
>       >       the
>       >       >       lessee and
>       >       >       > re-allocate them to those who truly
>       justify. This has
>       >       nothing
>       >       >       to do with
>       >       >       > interfere in the business of that
>       resource holder.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Often those supporting this misuse of IP
>       resources try
>       >       to
>       >       >       paint a picture
>       >       >       > that those resources are organization's
>       property and
>       >       the RIR
>       >       >       should be
>       >       >       > unable to do anything about that. Not
>       being a
>       >       irrevocable
>       >       >       properly
>       >       >       > organizations own explanations and
>       clarity about how
>       >       they use
>       >       >       it according
>       >       >       > to the what is in the best interest of
>       all those who
>       >       developed
>       >       >       and agreed
>       >       >       > the current rules in place and the
>       organization who
>       >       has the
>       >       >       duty to inspect
>       >       >       > that. Regardless the commercial model of
>       an
>       >       organization it
>       >       >       must adhere to
>       >       >       > the current rules and contract they
>       previously signed,
>       >       not the
>       >       >       other way
>       >       >       > round.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Also the understanding that a LIR leases
>       IP addresses
>       >       is quiet
>       >       >       wrong. If
>       >       >       > they are build Internet infrastructure,
>       provide
>       >       connectivity
>       >       >       and charge
>       >       >       > administrative fees for the addresses
>       they allocate to
>       >       that
>       >       >       customer there
>       >       >       > is nothing wrong with it.
>       >       >       > I personally can understand the
>       permanent Transfer of
>       >       >       resources and that has
>       >       >       > been a more natural and fair movement
>       and why
>       >       community agreed
>       >       >       on that on
>       >       >       > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful
>       picture painted
>       >       IP
>       >       >       leasing brings no
>       >       >       > good to lessee and to the Internet if
>       things can be
>       >       done in
>       >       >       the proper way.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Regards
>       >       >       > Fernando
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F. Guilmette
>       wrote:
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > In message
>       >       <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@iptrading.com>,
>       >       >       > "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > We tried the method you've espoused
>       below for thirty
>       >       years and
>       >       >       > the result were a huge amount of wasted
>       address space.
>       >       Once
>       >       >       the market
>       >       >       > was adopted, many of those addresses
>       found a useful
>       >       place in
>       >       >       the routing
>       >       >       > table.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22.  Mike,
>       you're
>       >       absolutely right
>       >       >       that once
>       >       >       > there was a free market, a lot of stuff
>       came off the
>       >       shelves
>       >       >       and started
>       >       >       > to be used productively.  But can any of
>       us say with
>       >       >       confidence that once
>       >       >       > there was a free market, a lot of this
>       commodity
>       >       (IPv4) that
>       >       >       was sitting
>       >       >       > on shelves didn't just stay there
>       -because- of the
>       >       open and
>       >       >       free market...
>       >       >       > because the "owners" of those blocks
>       effectively
>       >       became
>       >       >       speculators, just
>       >       >       > waiting arond for the scarcity to become
>       more acute,
>       >       and for
>       >       >       the price to
>       >       >       > go up?
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > (I confess that I never in my life took
>       an economics
>       >       class,
>       >       >       but it seems
>       >       >       > to me that the entire field is chock
>       full of
>       >       head-scratching
>       >       >       conundrums
>       >       >       > like this... situation where you are
>       damned if you do
>       >       and
>       >       >       damned if you
>       >       >       > don't.)
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > The free pool era is dying, let's put a
>       fork in it as
>       >       quickly
>       >       >       as
>       >       >       > possible We've seen the corruption
>       engendered by the
>       >       bait of
>       >       >       the
>       >       >       > free pool in multiple registries now,
>       including our
>       >       own.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion
>       on your part
>       >       extend
>       >       >       also to IPv6?
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Your old-fashioned method of address
>       distribution
>       >       would get
>       >       >       some
>       >       >       > addresses to those in need, I will
>       concede that.
>       >       However, so
>       >       >       will
>       >       >       > leasing addresses, with that
>       demonstration of need
>       >       being the
>       >       >       lease
>       >       >       > payment. Will  you concede that those
>       who pay to lease
>       >       >       addresses need
>       >       >       > them?
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Even if nobody else does, I certainly
>       will.  But of
>       >       course
>       >       >       that's not the
>       >       >       > only issue.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > The current Cloud Innovation v. AFRINIC
>       thing is in
>       >       some ways
>       >       >       confusing as
>       >       >       > hell because it has brought to a head
>       -multiple-
>       >       long-standing
>       >       >       issues that
>       >       >       > have then gotten all tangled up with one
>       another,
>       >       making it
>       >       >       difficult for
>       >       >       > anybody to tease apart the various
>       separate issues.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > One of these is what might be called
>       "equity", i.e.
>       >       the social
>       >       >       desire to
>       >       >       > help Africa, a continent and a people
>       who have been on
>       >       the
>       >       >       receiving end
>       >       >       > of so much exploitation and malevolent
>       evil, over the
>       >       >       centuries, at the
>       >       >       > hands of others.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Another issue is the right and proper
>       role of RIRs.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Last but not leas (and perhaps the most
>       troubling and
>       >       most
>       >       >       difficult to
>       >       >       > crack open in a way that does not merely
>       reveal our
>       >       individual
>       >       >       biases) is
>       >       >       > the question of the proper role of what
>       I will just
>       >       call
>       >       >       "speculators"
>       >       >       > within any free market.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Contrary to what some might say, I think
>       that when it
>       >       comes to
>       >       >       IPv4 addresse
>       >       >       > s
>       >       >       > at least, it most certainly -is-
>       possible to
>       >       distinguish
>       >       >       "speculators" from
>       >       >       > actual and legitimate end users and/or
>       legitimate
>       >       brokers &
>       >       >       middlemen such
>       >       >       > as yourself.  As I understand it, the
>       current system
>       >       requires
>       >       >       people to
>       >       >       > document their equipment purchases.  No
>       equipment
>       >       purchases? 
>       >       >       You're almost
>       >       >       > certainly just a speculator.
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > So then the question becomes two-fold: 
>       (1) Do we want
>       >       >       speculators in this
>       >       >       > marketplace? and (2) Is there any
>       actually feasible
>       >       way to
>       >       >       keep them out
>       >       >       > of the "free" market even if the
>       collective "we"
>       >       firmly
>       >       >       decided that we
>       >       >       > wanted to do so?
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > I personally don't have answers to any
>       of these
>       >       questions.  I
>       >       >       would only
>       >       >       > offer up the observation that I am aware
>       of at least a
>       >       few
>       >       >       speculators at
>       >       >       > this moment in time, and it would be an
>       understatement
>       >       for me
>       >       >       to say that
>       >       >       > their actions seem to me to be both
>       glaringly untoward
>       >       and
>       >       >       also unhelpful.
>       >       >       > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether
>       "speculators" are
>       >       a
>       >       >       necessary and even
>       >       >       > useful component of a free market, I
>       cannot say they
>       >       are not. 
>       >       >       And it seems
>       >       >       > I may not be alone in leaving open this
>       possibility:
>       >       >       >
>       >       >     >https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosi
>       o
>       >       n-
>       >       >       a
>       >       >       >
>       >     
>        nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/
>       >       >       >
>       >       >       > Regards,
>       >       >       > rfg
>       >       >       >
>       _______________________________________________
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>       >       >
>       >       > --
>       >       > --
>       >       > Kind regards.
>       >       > Lu
>       >       >
>       >       >
>       >       >
>       >
>       > --
>       > --
>       > Kind regards.
>       > Lu
>       >
>       >
>       >
> 
> --
> --
> Kind regards.
> Lu
> 
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