<div dir="auto">Hi</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日 周五下午2:49写道：<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:<br>
<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日 周五下午1:12写道：<br>
> <br>
><br>
> > No one is claiming anything here, everyone is paying a fair<br>
> market price for<br>
> > what they are using in a scare market. Owning an asset does<br>
> not constitute a<br>
> > crime.<br>
><br>
> Being allocated IP addresses from a RIR does not constitute<br>
> ownership of<br>
> an asset, under any circumstances.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Who decides this? All those asset purchase agreement wasn’t signed out of<br>
> blue.<br>
<br>
Agreements made among men and women based on erroneous premises are no <br>
more relevant that two people agreeing that the sky contains no stars; <br>
either they are both blind, they are both fooling only themselves, or one <br>
is dishonest, fooling the other, who is blind.</blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And why make you the authority to decide what is asset what is not?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Last time I check those power is with court.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><br>
<br>
> <br>
> Number itself might not constitute asset. However registration in an unique<br>
> database surely is.<br>
><br>
<br>
Said registration comes with responsibilites as well as rights. Consider <br>
it more a position of trust to manage the assets ethically. Such a <br>
position can be revoked, if that trust is broken.</blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">That is up for the court to decide, it is uncharted territory if RIR have such power, I think one day, a court case somewhere in the world will decide as such and things will be more clear.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><br>
<br>
> <br>
> <br>
><br>
> > Just because you no longer get land for free from the west,<br>
> doesn’t<br>
> > mean anyone today leasing you a house in Bay Area evil.<br>
> Capitalism rewards<br>
> > those who come first, in any market.<br>
><br>
> Capitalism, from my experience, rewards many of the worst<br>
> qualities in<br>
> mankind; greed, selfishness, and profit over all things. <br>
> Unfettered, it<br>
> will be civilization's undoing, ecologically. Meanwhile, the<br>
> strong will<br>
> simply continue to steal from the weak, and claim themselves<br>
> pioneers.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> That is an accusation without base. Rich must be stealing from the poor, a<br>
> perfect communist revolution quote.<br>
<br>
Where you see accusation, I see only analysis from a lifetime of <br>
observation and participation.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Most of market are started by pioneers—and some of them are become very rich<br>
> in the process—bill gates, Steve Jobs, for example. <br>
<br>
I suggest that you should contemplate the film "The Pirates of Silicon <br>
Valley" for a bit of historical perspective on these two figures. You may <br>
find that you just proved my point.</blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">No, I will not, I have my view on those two persons and you title yours—I don’t need some film to firm such view.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><br>
<br>
> <br>
> You experience clearly is not shared in this society,<br>
<br>
To which society do you refer?<br>
<br>
> which form of society<br>
> you are advocating?<br>
<br>
What makes you assume I am advocating for anything? I was simply refuting <br>
your point that capitalism rewards pioneers. Nikola Tesla, and a great <br>
many other true pioneers might disagree with you, were they alive and here <br>
to do so.</blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Capitalism rewards pioneers, does not means it rewards all pioneers.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><br>
<br>
> Capitalism can be flawed except it is the best mankind<br>
> have discover so far.<br>
<br>
Perhaps, perhaps not. You are, however, entitled to your opinion. Be <br>
aware that stating your opinion does not constitute fact.<br>
</blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I never claim it is fact. But what is your opinion of best form of society? Communism?</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><br>
> <br>
> <br>
><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > <<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:45写道：<br>
> > There is but one stream from which to drink, which<br>
> belongs to<br>
> > everyone.<br>
> > We simply ensure that the weakest may also drink, by<br>
> preventing<br>
> > the<br>
> > strong from damming the stream, and claiming all the<br>
> water to be<br>
> > theirs.<br>
> ><br>
> > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > > Taking out the market and middle man, have one central<br>
> body<br>
> > distribute all<br>
> > > resources and reclaim them when not needed.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with millions<br>
> life<br>
> > dead to proof it<br>
> > > won’t work?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > <<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日<br>
> 周五下午12:03写道：<br>
> > > +1<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Agreed. The middleman with no infrastructure<br>
> business<br>
> > model is<br>
> > > by<br>
> > > it's very nature parasitic.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Scott<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Surely people benefiting from IP leasing will<br>
> keep<br>
> > trying to<br>
> > > make it<br>
> > > > 'normal', acceptable and part of day by day as<br>
> if<br>
> > these<br>
> > > middleman were<br>
> > > > facilitating something for the good of the<br>
> internet<br>
> > while it<br>
> > > is the<br>
> > > > opposite.<br>
> > > > This practice serves exclusively to the<br>
> financial<br>
> > benefit of<br>
> > > those who lease<br>
> > > > (but are not building any Internet<br>
> Infrastructure) and<br>
> > of<br>
> > > course to the<br>
> > > > middleman not the lessee.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > How can it be beneficial to lessee that has to<br>
> pay<br>
> > more they<br>
> > > would have to<br>
> > > > spend if those very same resources were<br>
> recovered by<br>
> > the RIR<br>
> > > and<br>
> > > > re-distributed directly to that same<br>
> organization ?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > It doesn't matter much how the scenario<br>
> changed in the<br>
> > past<br>
> > > and recent<br>
> > > > years. There are principles and fairness to be<br>
> > observed and<br>
> > > they should not<br>
> > > > change in order to adjust the interest of<br>
> these few<br>
> > ones who<br>
> > > speculate a<br>
> > > > resource that doesn't belong to them and<br>
> wasn't<br>
> > justified for<br>
> > > that propose.<br>
> > > > It is just easier the RIR to recover them and<br>
> do the<br>
> > right<br>
> > > thing, for harder<br>
> > > > and stressful it can be it is the right thing<br>
> to be<br>
> > done.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > I don't mean to sound rude to those who<br>
> disagree with<br>
> > me, but<br>
> > > I really hope<br>
> > > > RIRs in general revoke as much as possible<br>
> addresses<br>
> > clearly<br>
> > > being used for<br>
> > > > leasing where the resource holder only<br>
> speculates<br>
> > them,<br>
> > > doesn't build any<br>
> > > > Internet infrastructure and where in many<br>
> cases don't<br>
> > even<br>
> > > exist<br>
> > > > connectivity between the current resource<br>
> holder and<br>
> > the<br>
> > > lessee and<br>
> > > > re-allocate them to those who truly justify.<br>
> This has<br>
> > nothing<br>
> > > to do with<br>
> > > > interfere in the business of that resource<br>
> holder.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Often those supporting this misuse of IP<br>
> resources try<br>
> > to<br>
> > > paint a picture<br>
> > > > that those resources are organization's<br>
> property and<br>
> > the RIR<br>
> > > should be<br>
> > > > unable to do anything about that. Not being a<br>
> > irrevocable<br>
> > > properly<br>
> > > > organizations own explanations and clarity<br>
> about how<br>
> > they use<br>
> > > it according<br>
> > > > to the what is in the best interest of all<br>
> those who<br>
> > developed<br>
> > > and agreed<br>
> > > > the current rules in place and the<br>
> organization who<br>
> > has the<br>
> > > duty to inspect<br>
> > > > that. Regardless the commercial model of an<br>
> > organization it<br>
> > > must adhere to<br>
> > > > the current rules and contract they previously<br>
> signed,<br>
> > not the<br>
> > > other way<br>
> > > > round.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Also the understanding that a LIR leases IP<br>
> addresses<br>
> > is quiet<br>
> > > wrong. If<br>
> > > > they are build Internet infrastructure,<br>
> provide<br>
> > connectivity<br>
> > > and charge<br>
> > > > administrative fees for the addresses they<br>
> allocate to<br>
> > that<br>
> > > customer there<br>
> > > > is nothing wrong with it.<br>
> > > > I personally can understand the permanent<br>
> Transfer of<br>
> > > resources and that has<br>
> > > > been a more natural and fair movement and why<br>
> > community agreed<br>
> > > on that on<br>
> > > > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful picture<br>
> painted<br>
> > IP<br>
> > > leasing brings no<br>
> > > > good to lessee and to the Internet if things<br>
> can be<br>
> > done in<br>
> > > the proper way.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Regards<br>
> > > > Fernando<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F. Guilmette<br>
> wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > In message<br>
> > <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@<a href="http://iptrading.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">iptrading.com</a>>,<br>
> > > > "Mike Burns" <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > We tried the method you've espoused below for<br>
> thirty<br>
> > years and<br>
> > > > the result were a huge amount of wasted<br>
> address space.<br>
> > Once<br>
> > > the market<br>
> > > > was adopted, many of those addresses found a<br>
> useful<br>
> > place in<br>
> > > the routing<br>
> > > > table.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22. Mike, you're<br>
> > absolutely right<br>
> > > that once<br>
> > > > there was a free market, a lot of stuff came<br>
> off the<br>
> > shelves<br>
> > > and started<br>
> > > > to be used productively. But can any of us<br>
> say with<br>
> > > confidence that once<br>
> > > > there was a free market, a lot of this<br>
> commodity<br>
> > (IPv4) that<br>
> > > was sitting<br>
> > > > on shelves didn't just stay there -because- of<br>
> the<br>
> > open and<br>
> > > free market...<br>
> > > > because the "owners" of those blocks<br>
> effectively<br>
> > became<br>
> > > speculators, just<br>
> > > > waiting arond for the scarcity to become more<br>
> acute,<br>
> > and for<br>
> > > the price to<br>
> > > > go up?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > (I confess that I never in my life took an<br>
> economics<br>
> > class,<br>
> > > but it seems<br>
> > > > to me that the entire field is chock full of<br>
> > head-scratching<br>
> > > conundrums<br>
> > > > like this... situation where you are damned if<br>
> you do<br>
> > and<br>
> > > damned if you<br>
> > > > don't.)<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > The free pool era is dying, let's put a fork<br>
> in it as<br>
> > quickly<br>
> > > as<br>
> > > > possible We've seen the corruption engendered<br>
> by the<br>
> > bait of<br>
> > > the<br>
> > > > free pool in multiple registries now,<br>
> including our<br>
> > own.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion on your<br>
> part<br>
> > extend<br>
> > > also to IPv6?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Your old-fashioned method of address<br>
> distribution<br>
> > would get<br>
> > > some<br>
> > > > addresses to those in need, I will concede<br>
> that.<br>
> > However, so<br>
> > > will<br>
> > > > leasing addresses, with that demonstration of<br>
> need<br>
> > being the<br>
> > > lease<br>
> > > > payment. Will you concede that those who pay<br>
> to lease<br>
> > > addresses need<br>
> > > > them?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Even if nobody else does, I certainly will. <br>
> But of<br>
> > course<br>
> > > that's not the<br>
> > > > only issue.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > The current Cloud Innovation v. AFRINIC thing<br>
> is in<br>
> > some ways<br>
> > > confusing as<br>
> > > > hell because it has brought to a head<br>
> -multiple-<br>
> > long-standing<br>
> > > issues that<br>
> > > > have then gotten all tangled up with one<br>
> another,<br>
> > making it<br>
> > > difficult for<br>
> > > > anybody to tease apart the various separate<br>
> issues.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > One of these is what might be called "equity",<br>
> i.e.<br>
> > the social<br>
> > > desire to<br>
> > > > help Africa, a continent and a people who have<br>
> been on<br>
> > the<br>
> > > receiving end<br>
> > > > of so much exploitation and malevolent evil,<br>
> over the<br>
> > > centuries, at the<br>
> > > > hands of others.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Another issue is the right and proper role of<br>
> RIRs.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Last but not leas (and perhaps the most<br>
> troubling and<br>
> > most<br>
> > > difficult to<br>
> > > > crack open in a way that does not merely<br>
> reveal our<br>
> > individual<br>
> > > biases) is<br>
> > > > the question of the proper role of what I will<br>
> just<br>
> > call<br>
> > > "speculators"<br>
> > > > within any free market.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Contrary to what some might say, I think that<br>
> when it<br>
> > comes to<br>
> > > IPv4 addresse<br>
> > > > s<br>
> > > > at least, it most certainly -is- possible to<br>
> > distinguish<br>
> > > "speculators" from<br>
> > > > actual and legitimate end users and/or<br>
> legitimate<br>
> > brokers &<br>
> > > middlemen such<br>
> > > > as yourself. As I understand it, the current<br>
> system<br>
> > requires<br>
> > > people to<br>
> > > > document their equipment purchases. No<br>
> equipment<br>
> > purchases? <br>
> > > You're almost<br>
> > > > certainly just a speculator.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > So then the question becomes two-fold: (1) Do<br>
> we want<br>
> > > speculators in this<br>
> > > > marketplace? and (2) Is there any actually<br>
> feasible<br>
> > way to<br>
> > > keep them out<br>
> > > > of the "free" market even if the collective<br>
> "we"<br>
> > firmly<br>
> > > decided that we<br>
> > > > wanted to do so?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > I personally don't have answers to any of<br>
> these<br>
> > questions. I<br>
> > > would only<br>
> > > > offer up the observation that I am aware of at<br>
> least a<br>
> > few<br>
> > > speculators at<br>
> > > > this moment in time, and it would be an<br>
> understatement<br>
> > for me<br>
> > > to say that<br>
> > > > their actions seem to me to be both glaringly<br>
> untoward<br>
> > and<br>
> > > also unhelpful.<br>
> > > > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether<br>
> "speculators" are<br>
> > a<br>
> > > necessary and even<br>
> > > > useful component of a free market, I cannot<br>
> say they<br>
> > are not. <br>
> > > And it seems<br>
> > > > I may not be alone in leaving open this<br>
> possibility:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosi" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosi</a><br>
> o<br>
> > n-<br>
> > > a<br>
> > > ><br>
> > nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Regards,<br>
> > > > rfg<br>
> > > ><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> > > > ARIN-PPML<br>
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> > issues.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > --<br>
> > > --<br>
> > > Kind regards.<br>
> > > Lu<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > --<br>
> > Kind regards.<br>
> > Lu<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> --<br>
> Kind regards.<br>
> Lu<br>
> <br>
> <br>
></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>--<br>Kind regards.<br>Lu<br><br></div></div></div>