[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-5: Equalization of Assignment Registration requirements between IPv4 and IPv6

Paul McNary pmcnary at cameron.net
Wed Jul 26 05:11:13 EDT 2017


Hello Owen
I think we are really almost in total agreement! :-)
I think we use words a little differently, but It think
we want a similar result. "Address Tracking" was not
on my concerns list except for possible CPNI violations
which I see a solution of how to handle this.

Take care
Paul


On 7/26/2017 1:13 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 25, 2017, at 15:46, Paul McNary <pmcnary at cameron.net 
> <mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>
>> Let me change "geolocation" to "address tracking".
>> For instance, Netflix blocks a certain region and whois is showing 
>> customer
>> in that region, whereas the customer is actually in a non-blocked region.
>> If I had my own IPv4 /24 or above I don't have any issue making this 
>> entry correct to ARIN.
>
> I know for a fact that Netflix bases very little (if any) of their 
> geo-fencing on Whois data.
>
>> But I have a /25 block from a datacenter that shows I am in California.
>> Their SWIP policy on IPv4 is /24 to SWIP.
>> We are trying to minimize these issues as we deploy IPv6 when we have 
>> direct allocation.
>> I am not debating the "address tracking" issue just brought it up 
>> because I think John made a comment about it.
>
> I think if you review the record I stated early on that I didn't 
> believe geolocation was a practical use of Whois.
>
>> We see ebay, amazon, craig's list all using whois information.
>
> Really? Source needed.
>
> In my experience they use other geolocation providers.
>
>> Also our /25's have been blocked at the /24 and /18 level.
>> We had /24's blocked that are reallocated at the parent /18 level.
>> So unless there is some way to enforce, it just seems to be words on 
>> paper.
>
> Enforce what? Geolocation is a truly black art and there is no central 
> clearing house or community driven policy body driving its practitioners.
>
>>
>> CHANGE of subject not topic
>> --------------------------------------
>> What I had wished to do on IPv6 deployment is assign an IPv6 /48 to 
>> each Tower(WISP), each POP(ISP)
>> I would want that switched as will as any individually announced 
>> block smaller than that.
>> Haven't decided but have a separate /48 to handle DNS, mail servers, 
>> etc. ie Our Infrastructure
>> Anything less specific that a /48 would just add noise to the world 
>> and would be somewhat proprietary.
>> I give away some info just advertising my POP's/Towers but I think 
>> that would be for the collective good. :-)
>> The world doesn't need to know my Access Points or neighborhood 
>> routers, etc.
>
> I see no reason you can't accomplish this under the proposed policy. I 
> support the current draft as previously stated.
>
>
> Owen
>
>>
>> I think I need to get off my soapbox and take a nap now!
>> I know I ramble a lot, but getting too old to change much! :-)
>> Thanks
>> Take care
>> Paul
>>
>> On 7/25/2017 5:17 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote:
>>> If I, as an End User network, want to inform geolocation providers 
>>> of where I'm using each netblock, having them assigned to me in the 
>>> whois DB with an appropriate address is one of the best ways to do 
>>> that.  But if I'm running a geolocation service, I can't rely on 
>>> whois as the sole source of data on where an address is used.  If I 
>>> have other info that contradicts the whois information, I'd probably 
>>> just ignore the whois data and go with the facts on the ground.
>>>
>>> -Scott
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Paul McNary <pmcnary at cameron.net 
>>> <mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Owen
>>>     Several weeks ago geolocation was one of the arguments for
>>>     having accurate whois in this thread.
>>>     This is no longer being argued?
>>>     Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 7/25/2017 4:26 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>>
>>>         Huh?
>>>
>>>         WHOIS is not a geolocation service and anyone who thinks it
>>>         is should reduce their use of recreational pharmaceuticals.
>>>
>>>         Owen
>>>
>>>             On Jul 24, 2017, at 12:03 , Paul McNary
>>>             <pmcnary at cameron.net <mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Then that totally negates the reasoning for geolocation.
>>>             The administrative address could be on the other side of
>>>             the earth.
>>>
>>>             Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>             On 7/24/2017 1:31 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>>
>>>                     On Jul 20, 2017, at 14:28 ,
>>>                     hostmaster at uneedus.com
>>>                     <mailto:hostmaster at uneedus.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>                     My transit bus example is another example of
>>>                     SWIP difficulty.  Very hard to provide a street
>>>                     address to SWIP a bus when it is mobile 16 hours
>>>                     a day.
>>>
>>>                 Not at all. A bus would be SWIPd to the bus yard or
>>>                 administrative offices of the bus company. The SWIP
>>>                 data is not required to be the service address, it
>>>                 is required to be an address for administrative
>>>                 and/or technical contact regarding the network
>>>                 and/or legal process service regarding same.
>>>
>>>                 [rest trimmed because we are in agreement on that part]
>>>
>>>                 Owen
>>>
>>>                     On Thu, 20 Jul 2017, Chris James wrote:
>>>
>>>                         @Paul - The API key is to email it.
>>>
>>>                         @Owen - Very difficult when you have dynamic
>>>                         ranges, and vps/container
>>>                         platforms spanning tens of thousands of
>>>                         instances across these dynamic
>>>                         ranges.
>>>
>>>
>>>                         On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Paul McNary
>>>                         <pmcnary at cameron.net
>>>                         <mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                             Owen
>>>
>>>                             The reassignment policy page says IPv6
>>>                             has to be done vi API.
>>>                             Is that something else that is incorrect
>>>                             on the web site?
>>>
>>>                             Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>                             On 7/20/2017 3:16 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>>
>>>                                 How can it be overly difficult to
>>>                                 fill out an email template with your
>>>                                 customers’
>>>                                 Name, Address, Phone Number?
>>>
>>>                                 Really?
>>>
>>>                                 Owen
>>>
>>>                                 On Jul 19, 2017, at 23:48 ,
>>>                                 Pallieter Koopmans
>>>                                 <Pallieter at pallieter.org
>>>                                 <mailto:Pallieter at pallieter.org>>
>>>
>>>                                     wrote:
>>>
>>>                                     Hello,
>>>
>>>                                     ARIN could quantify and require
>>>                                     rules for when to SWIP, but in the
>>>                                     end, there are going to be
>>>                                     exceptions needed if the rules
>>>                                     are to be
>>>                                     strictly followed. Many will not
>>>                                     separately SWIP a separately routed
>>>                                     sub-block if it is too difficult
>>>                                     or pointless to gather and share
>>>                                     that
>>>                                     data back upstream to ARIN.
>>>
>>>                                     Thus a more fuzzy rule to
>>>                                     require a best-effort and to add a
>>>                                     rule-based reason (preferably
>>>                                     both a carrot and a stick) for block
>>>                                     owners to do their best to
>>>                                     provide (only) useful data. In
>>>                                     order to do
>>>                                     that, one needs to look back at
>>>                                     why that data is needed. For a block
>>>                                     owner to assign the SWIP on a
>>>                                     sub-block, he basically
>>>                                     delegates tech
>>>                                     and abuse contact requests down
>>>                                     to those that are probably more
>>>                                     likely
>>>                                     to be able to actually act on
>>>                                     the tech/abuse requests (and
>>>                                     thus reduce
>>>                                     request-handling workload higher
>>>                                     up and overall). But for that to
>>>                                     work, those tech/abuse contact
>>>                                     requests need to be actually
>>>                                     handled,
>>>                                     otherwise, it is better to leave
>>>                                     them with the block owner.
>>>
>>>                                     In the end, the contact details
>>>                                     should be as close to the "person"
>>>                                     that is actually capable to both
>>>                                     handle (think: volume/languages/etc)
>>>                                     and act (think: authority) on
>>>                                     the tech/abuse requests.
>>>
>>>                                     eBrain
>>>                                     Innovative Internet Ideas
>>>
>>>                                     Pallieter Koopmans
>>>                                     Managing Director
>>>
>>>                                     +31-6-3400-3800
>>>                                     <tel:%2B31-6-3400-3800> (mon-sat
>>>                                     9-22 CET)
>>>                                     Skype: PallieterKoopmans
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