[arin-ppml] 2015-2
Rudolph Daniel
rudi.daniel at gmail.com
Wed May 27 09:24:44 EDT 2015
>>The large multinational actor has the option of buying space in the ARIN
market and moving it ARIN->>APNIC->CNNIC.
>>The small operator in China has trouble competing with the large
multinational actor because the small actor has no such option for
>>obtaining IPv4 addresses.<<
If the above is s fair example of current situation, it seems unfair or did
advantageous to a smaller operator.
So would a set of anti flip words with an allocation size operator work? Or
would there be fear of broadening the flip market ?
Or I can ask, at what size of allocation does antiflip rules begin to be
necessary?
RD
On May 27, 2015 8:17 AM, <arin-ppml-request at arin.net> wrote:
> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to
> arin-ppml at arin.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> arin-ppml-request at arin.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> arin-ppml-owner at arin.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers
> to Specified Recipients) (Seth Mattinen)
> 2. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers
> to Specified Recipients) (Adam Thompson)
> 3. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers
> to Specified Recipients) (John Curran)
> 4. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers
> to Specified Recipients) (Owen DeLong)
> 5. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers
> to Specified Recipients) (Owen DeLong)
> 6. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers
> to Specified Recipients) (Owen DeLong)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 16:23:16 -0700
> From: Seth Mattinen <sethm at rollernet.us>
> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4
> (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients)
> Message-ID: <55650064.6090907 at rollernet.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 5/26/15 16:14, David Huberman wrote:
> > Bill,
> >
> > I don't understand your position.
> >
> > There's no free pool. All space comes from the market.
> >
> > A small actor pays money to get her necessary space from the market.
> > A large actor pays money to get her necessary space from the market.
> >
> > How does the large actor moving space they hold from ARIN to CNNIC
> disadvantage the small actor?
> >
>
>
> ARIN still appears to have IPv4 inventory to fulfill requests that I
> think of when I think "small actor", like /24's and /23's. The size that
> probably can't match what a company like Microsoft can pay for IP space.
> What do you consider small?
>
> ~Seth
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 18:57:53 -0500
> From: Adam Thompson <athompso at athompso.net>
> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4
> (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients)
> Message-ID: <37B252D8-FF4C-4C3C-B916-D63BFE1A24B1 at athompso.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Unless I've missed something, the change in question only affects
> purchased or transferred blocks, not blocks coming from inventory.
> As far as I know, big and small players already pay the same price in the
> transfer market.
> The existing policies only seem to affect large corporations in the first
> place, so don't disadvantage the small org AFAICT. Considering I'm always
> complaining about vsmall orgs being ignored, I'd like to see a situation
> where this change negatively images them, if I've missed it.
> (Apologies for top-posting from mobile..)
> -Adam
>
> On May 26, 2015 6:23:16 PM CDT, Seth Mattinen <sethm at rollernet.us> wrote:
> >On 5/26/15 16:14, David Huberman wrote:
> >> Bill,
> >>
> >> I don't understand your position.
> >>
> >> There's no free pool. All space comes from the market.
> >>
> >> A small actor pays money to get her necessary space from the market.
> >> A large actor pays money to get her necessary space from the market.
> >>
> >> How does the large actor moving space they hold from ARIN to CNNIC
> >disadvantage the small actor?
> >>
> >
> >
> >ARIN still appears to have IPv4 inventory to fulfill requests that I
> >think of when I think "small actor", like /24's and /23's. The size
> >that
> >probably can't match what a company like Microsoft can pay for IP
> >space.
> >What do you consider small?
> >
> >~Seth
> >_______________________________________________
> >PPML
> >You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> >the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
> >Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> >Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20150526/350ba519/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 02:06:57 +0000
> From: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
> To: BIll Herrin <bill at herrin.us>
> Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net" <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4
> (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients)
> Message-ID: <A0839E06-B097-41F4-9F7B-D02324B5D47B at arin.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On May 26, 2015, at 7:11 PM, William Herrin <bill at herrin.us> wrote:
> > ...
> > If that's what you truly believe and the rest of the RIR leadership
> > agrees with your viewpoint, may I respectfully suggest that you
> > collectively task the NRO with creating a uniform policy and policy
> > process to replace the regional policies and process we have now.
>
> Some clarity of terms:
>
> - Global policy ? policy used by the IANA registry operator for
> administration
> of the IANA Internet number registries
>
> - Globally-coordinated policy ? policy used by the RIRs for
> administration of
> their regional registries that has been coordinated among the RIRs to
> be
> uniform
>
> - Regional policy ? policy used by the an RIR for administration of the
> Internet number registries for that region
>
> It is the community, not an asserted ?RIR leadership?, that matters when it
> comes to policy development, and the community has the tools necessary
> to develop globally uniform policies if it chooses to do so.
>
> > This is one of those things where the middle ground compromise is
> > distinctly worse than either pole. Either act regionally with policies
> > and address pools for use within the region or act globally with
> > policies and address pools for use worldwide. The middle ground lends
> > itself only to unfair advantage for multinational operators who can
> > shop multiple regions for advantage.
>
> You have a reasonable argument for why there should be globally-coordinated
> policy in this area. If you need any assistance when developing your
> proposal,
> please reach out to the ARIN Advisory Council for assistance. Ultimately,
> it is up
> to the globally community whether a globally uniform transfer policy is
> desirable.
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> ARIN
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:03:45 +0200
> From: Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>
> To: David Huberman <David.Huberman at microsoft.com>
> Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net" <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4
> (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients)
> Message-ID: <D65DF2B7-C316-4E5A-B8A1-A37BCD615779 at delong.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I could support a policy that allows you to transfer them to your own
> entity out of region for this purpose if there were some language that
> prevented subsequent flipping.
>
> However, the policy as proposed creates too much opportunity for
> unintended consequences that the original anti-flip language is intended to
> prevent.
>
> Owen
>
> > On May 26, 2015, at 10:30 PM, David Huberman <
> David.Huberman at microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Why is another region's policy problem or restrictions something that
> needs
> >> fixing through ARIN policy?
> >
> > Two answers:
> >
> > Because ARIN-region networks, subject to ARIN's NRPM, need to be able to
> move IP addresses out of region where and when they're needed.
> > AND
> > Because ARIN policy currently prohibits staff from counting
> out-of-region use as part of justification for a request.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PPML
> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:09:07 +0200
> From: Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>
> To: David Huberman <David.Huberman at microsoft.com>
> Cc: "ARIN PPML \(ppml at arin.net\)" <ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4
> (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients)
> Message-ID: <08519D1D-F30F-4205-A1D1-2CBCA1A9C632 at delong.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> You are correct, David? We should restore the anti-flip language that
> prohibits an organization which received a transfer from subsequently being
> a provider for any transfer within 24 months.
>
> Owen
>
> > On May 27, 2015, at 12:38 AM, David Huberman <
> David.Huberman at microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> >> So basically, you'd like to do an end run around the law in China and
> it would
> >> be oh so helpful if ARIN would cooperate?
> >
> > ???
> >
> > For clarity:
> >
> > Statement 1: If you acquire a block on the open market and transfer it
> into your ARIN account, NRPM 8.4 locks it into ARIN for 2 years.
> >
> > Statement 2: If you need to operate in China and get Chinese transit or
> peering, Chinese law requires the prefix being announced be registered in
> CNNIC.
> >
> > Statement 1 was intended to prevent flipping/speculating.
> > Statement 2 is Chinese internet policy.
> >
> > A bad actor gets around Statement 1 by transferring the block to a
> different OrgID in ARIN via NRPM 8.2. Once that transfer occurs, the block
> in the different OrgID is not subject to Statement 1 . Flipping/speculation
> can now occur.
> >
> > A good actor has no choice but to get around Statement 1 by transferring
> the block to a different OrgID in ARIN via NRPM 8.2, then doing an
> inter-RIR transfer to APNIC (and then to CNNIC). BGP can now occur.
> >
> > In either case, Statement 1 is no-op.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PPML
> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:11:58 +0200
> From: Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>
> To: David Huberman <David.Huberman at microsoft.com>
> Cc: "ARIN PPML \(ppml at arin.net\)" <ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4
> (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients)
> Message-ID: <313707E5-FBED-4769-96F0-9DEFCF8ADA15 at delong.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> The large multinational actor has the option of buying space in the ARIN
> market and moving it ARIN->APNIC->CNNIC.
>
> The small operator in China has trouble competing with the large
> multinational actor because the small actor has no such option for
> obtaining IPv4 addresses.
>
> (As one example)
>
> Owen
>
> > On May 27, 2015, at 1:14 AM, David Huberman <
> David.Huberman at microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I don't understand your position.
> >
> > There's no free pool. All space comes from the market.
> >
> > A small actor pays money to get her necessary space from the market.
> > A large actor pays money to get her necessary space from the market.
> >
> > How does the large actor moving space they hold from ARIN to CNNIC
> disadvantage the small actor?
> >
> > David
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: William Herrin [mailto:bill at herrin.us]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 3:55 PM
> >> To: David Huberman
> >> Cc: ARIN PPML (ppml at arin.net)
> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR
> >> Transfers to Specified Recipients)
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 6:38 PM, David Huberman
> >> <David.Huberman at microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>> A good actor has no choice but to get around Statement 1 by
> >>> transferring the block to a different OrgID in ARIN via NRPM 8.2, then
> >>> doing an inter-RIR transfer to APNIC (and then to CNNIC). BGP can now
> >> occur.
> >>
> >> Hi David,
> >>
> >> That's a "good" actor? This sort of corrupt behavior that benefits
> multi-
> >> national organizations at the expense of local operators is why I argued
> >> against inter-RIR transfers in the first place. I doubt I'll win this
> argument
> >> either, but at least someone will have gone on record calling a spade a
> spade.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Bill Herrin
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> William Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com bill at herrin.us
> Owner,
> >> Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
> > _______________________________________________
> > PPML
> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-PPML mailing list
> ARIN-PPML at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>
> End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 119, Issue 12
> ******************************************
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20150527/2db16f24/attachment.htm>
More information about the ARIN-PPML
mailing list