[arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers

Thu Jun 5 10:10:12 EDT 2014

On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:42 AM, CJ Aronson <cja at daydream.com> wrote:

> Elvis..
>
> I am sure with any policy folks will try to game the system.  From my
> experience with RIPE I think the community would not be pleased if the last
> of the remaining /22s were all given to US companies for use in the US.
>  But who knows.
>
> I went to a colleague at the RIPE NCC to get information for this list.
> Your summary that anyone can get as much address space as they want from
> the RIPE NCC for 1600 Euros a year is not true
>

It's Euro1750 and not unlimited space.

https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-591

>  and I wanted to make sure that for this discussion that we had a more
> realistic assessment.   If folks want to become RIPE members and
> misrepresent how the address space is going to be used that's really up to
> them.
>
> ----Cathy
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Elvis Velea <elvis at velea.eu> wrote:
>
>>  Hi Cathy,
>>
>> how can one verify where address space is used? Do you verify the AS
>> announcing it, and what if that AS is globally routed and it peers with
>> various organisations within several service regions? Do you ping the
>> address to see how long it takes for the Pong to come back to you?
>> These RIR bordes are artificial and have nothing to do with operational
>> reality. One can route the address space it gets from/to anywhere in the
>> world, especially if it has a Tier1/2 provider which offers global services.
>>
>> There has been a simple workaround available for years. Have a look at
>> the RIPE Database split files and see how many inetnums have country code
>> US. You will be surprised :)
>> You can always announce a /16 in the RIPE region and two /17s in the ARIN
>> region and then the 'requirement' of having the space announced in the RIPE
>> region is satisfied, right?
>> It's just that all the traffic will flow to the router announcing the two
>> /17s.
>> Plus, the RIPE NCC allocates only a /22 from the last /8. So, if you
>> become a member and have a router somewhere in Europe where you will need
>> to use at least a few addresses and therefore you qualify to receive the
>> /22. RIPE NCC will not complain if the /24 used for that router/equipment
>> is announced in the RIPE region and the rest in an other region where you
>> may have other equipment and/or customers.
>> Additionally, once you are a member and request a transfer, the only
>> thing you need to fill in is the transfer agreement template and confirm
>> that you are requesting the transfer in order to make assignments from the
>> allocation. It does not matter to whom you make those assignments or where
>> these will be used.
>>
>> http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/ipv4-transfers/transfer-agreement-template
>> Lastly, the RIPE NCC SSA (the contract) does not say anything about where
>> the resources can be used and the _current policies_ are at best *vague*.
>>
>> For example, the RIPE IPv4 policy says:
>> "1.0 Introduction
>> The RIPE NCC is an independent association and serves as one of five
>> Regional Internet Registries (RIRs). Its service region incorporates
>> Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia. The RIPE NCC is responsible for
>> the allocation and assignment of Internet Protocol (IP) address space,
>> Autonomous System Numbers (ASNs) and the management of reverse domain names
>> within this region.
>> [...]
>> 1.1 Scope
>>  This document describes the policies for the responsible management of
>> globally unique IPv4 Internet address space in the RIPE NCC service region.
>> The policies documented here apply to all IPv4 address space allocated and
>> assigned by the RIPE NCC."
>>
>> There is no document saying that the address space allocated by the RIPE
>> NCC can only be used in the RIPE service region.
>>
>> As far as I have seen ARIN is only now trying to limit the use of the
>> address space it allocates to it's service region. I do not think a similar
>> policy proposal would fly in the RIPE community.
>>
>> We live in a global world, most large companies have operations in more
>> than one region. I think these organisations should have only one RIR
>> handle their addresses and the RIRs should mirror the databases of the
>> other RIRs to avoid duplicate registration. My impression is that the RIPE
>> NCC is the only RIR that is currently mirroring the other RIR databases and
>> making steps towards what I think should become at some point a unique
>> point of data collection.
>>
>> cheers,
>> elvis
>>
>> PS: the views above are my own and have nothing to do with my previous or
>> current employer
>>
>>
>> On 05/06/14 14:23, CJ Aronson wrote:
>>
>> I asked a colleague at the RIPE NCC regarding this question of getting
>> address space from RIPE.
>>
>>  She said, "We accept organisations that are
>> incorporated in other regions as members. But we require that the
>> address space we allocate will be used/announced in the RIPE NCC service
>> region."
>>
>>  ----Cathy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:31 PM, CJ Aronson <cja at daydream.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Let's be clear.. the RIPE NCC will only give a one-time /22 for your
>>> 1600 Euros/year.   RIPE has always made applicants prove a business
>>> presense in the region and I believe that's what the
>>> "
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    The name of the "Chamber of Commerce" where your company is
>>>    registered
>>>     -
>>>
>>>       For example, Companies House, KvK etc."
>>>
>>> Is referring to.  The link is here for your reference:
>>>
>>> http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/application
>>>
>>>  You'll have to apply and see.
>>>
>>>  If you want more than a /22 you'll have to go to the transfer market.
>>>
>>>  ----Cathy
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Elvis Velea <elvis at velea.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Hi John,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 05/06/14 04:05, John Von Stein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Elvis,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So does that mean a US based ISP such as QxC wanted / needed an
>>>> additional IPv4 allocation we could simply go to RIPE and get the IPv4 we
>>>> want/need?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  yup :) and only for €1600/year and with no transfer fees :)
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> elvis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> John W. Von Stein
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [image: cid:sigimg0 at 791f5d9d52446f85c6fed00adec61823]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 102 NE 2nd Street
>>>>
>>>> Suite 136
>>>>
>>>> Boca Raton, FL 33432
>>>>
>>>> Office: 561-288-6989
>>>>
>>>> www.QxCcommunications.com <http://www.qxccommunications.com/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
>>>> addressed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
>>>> <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>] On Behalf Of Elvis Velea
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:35 PM
>>>> To: David Huberman
>>>> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi David,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> even further... for those that do not know yet, any legal or private
>>>> person can become a member of the RIPE NCC while the ARIN
>>>> policies/procedures still require a company to have a legal presence in the
>>>> ARIN region in order to request resources.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And, btw.. have I already mentioned that the RIPE Community has
>>>> completely removed the demonstrated need from their policy? I think I was
>>>> only discussing this matter in the APNIC mailing lists and maybe those
>>>> subscribed to this mailing list should also be aware of.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>>
>>>> elvis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 05/06/14 03:30, David Huberman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I agree completely, Elvis.  There's an argument to be made that if
>>>> ARIN won't be flexible with transfer policy, that RIPE becomes the most
>>>> useful RIR for operators to work within.  There's a further argument that's
>>>> been made that the time for regional IRs may be passed (past?) and that
>>>> IETF should review the situation.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > David R Huberman
>>>>
>>>> > Microsoft Corporation
>>>>
>>>> > Senior IT/OPS Program Manager (GFS)
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > ________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> > From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on
>>>>
>>>> > behalf of Elvis Velea <elvis at velea.eu>
>>>>
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:21:52 PM
>>>>
>>>> > To: arin-ppml at arin.net
>>>>
>>>> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Hi David,
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > On 05/06/14 02:21, David Huberman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> We're going to be a cross-roads very soon.  ARIN is going to
>>>> exhaust, and network operators will be unable to obtain additional IPv4
>>>> address blocks from ARIN.  At that point, the most obvious solution for
>>>> IPv4 needs will be the market.
>>>>
>>>> > And then, they will be able to register as RIPE NCC members (LIRs)
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> > receive as many IP addresses as they want without having to prove any
>>>>
>>>> > demonstrated need. All they will need to do is to confirm that they
>>>>
>>>> > will use these addresses for themselves or their customers.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >>    Proper stewardship of the ARIN function demands that ARIN policy
>>>> adjust to what happens in the market.  It's not the other way around, if
>>>> only because that's not how markets work.
>>>>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> >> The ARIN CEO, ARIN's General Counsel, the Harvard economist ARIN
>>>> pays, professors who study markets, brokers who operate in the market, and
>>>> buyers and sellers who buy and sell in the market have all told the ARIN
>>>> community the same story for around 5 years now: the market is going to act
>>>> as a market, and ARIN policy needs to be ready for it; ARIN policy needs to
>>>> make sense with the dynamics of the market.
>>>>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> >> It's hard to know how to argue with operators like Owen and the
>>>>
>>>> >> Google folks who all say the opposite; that ARIN policy should stick
>>>>
>>>> >> to the same ideals as 1995 (important ideals for a very long time!)
>>>>
>>>> >> and not adjust.  I fear the results of this kind of ostracism :(
>>>>
>>>> > Well, then let them slowly kill the ARIN function. If all ARIN
>>>> members
>>>>
>>>> > can no longer get resources and they stop paying and go to the
>>>>
>>>> > cheapest RIR (which btw is RIPE NCC with EUR1600/year no matter how
>>>>
>>>> > many resources one has) and get as many resources they want... what
>>>> do
>>>>
>>>> > you think will happen?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > cheers,
>>>>
>>>> > elvis
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> > PPML
>>>>
>>>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> PPML
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> PPML
>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PPML
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-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route
indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
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