[arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers

Thu Jun 5 09:42:34 EDT 2014

Elvis..

I am sure with any policy folks will try to game the system.  From my
experience with RIPE I think the community would not be pleased if the last
of the remaining /22s were all given to US companies for use in the US.
 But who knows.

I went to a colleague at the RIPE NCC to get information for this list.
Your summary that anyone can get as much address space as they want from
the RIPE NCC for 1600 Euros a year is not true and I wanted to make sure
that for this discussion that we had a more realistic assessment.   If
folks want to become RIPE members and misrepresent how the address space is
going to be used that's really up to them.

----Cathy

On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Elvis Velea <elvis at velea.eu> wrote:

>  Hi Cathy,
>
> how can one verify where address space is used? Do you verify the AS
> announcing it, and what if that AS is globally routed and it peers with
> various organisations within several service regions? Do you ping the
> address to see how long it takes for the Pong to come back to you?
> These RIR bordes are artificial and have nothing to do with operational
> reality. One can route the address space it gets from/to anywhere in the
> world, especially if it has a Tier1/2 provider which offers global services.
>
> There has been a simple workaround available for years. Have a look at the
> RIPE Database split files and see how many inetnums have country code US.
> You will be surprised :)
> You can always announce a /16 in the RIPE region and two /17s in the ARIN
> region and then the 'requirement' of having the space announced in the RIPE
> region is satisfied, right?
> It's just that all the traffic will flow to the router announcing the two
> /17s.
> Plus, the RIPE NCC allocates only a /22 from the last /8. So, if you
> become a member and have a router somewhere in Europe where you will need
> to use at least a few addresses and therefore you qualify to receive the
> /22. RIPE NCC will not complain if the /24 used for that router/equipment
> is announced in the RIPE region and the rest in an other region where you
> may have other equipment and/or customers.
> Additionally, once you are a member and request a transfer, the only thing
> you need to fill in is the transfer agreement template and confirm that you
> are requesting the transfer in order to make assignments from the
> allocation. It does not matter to whom you make those assignments or where
> these will be used.
>
> http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/ipv4-transfers/transfer-agreement-template
> Lastly, the RIPE NCC SSA (the contract) does not say anything about where
> the resources can be used and the _current policies_ are at best *vague*.
>
> For example, the RIPE IPv4 policy says:
> "1.0 Introduction
> The RIPE NCC is an independent association and serves as one of five
> Regional Internet Registries (RIRs). Its service region incorporates
> Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia. The RIPE NCC is responsible for
> the allocation and assignment of Internet Protocol (IP) address space,
> Autonomous System Numbers (ASNs) and the management of reverse domain names
> within this region.
> [...]
> 1.1 Scope
>  This document describes the policies for the responsible management of
> globally unique IPv4 Internet address space in the RIPE NCC service region.
> The policies documented here apply to all IPv4 address space allocated and
> assigned by the RIPE NCC."
>
> There is no document saying that the address space allocated by the RIPE
> NCC can only be used in the RIPE service region.
>
> As far as I have seen ARIN is only now trying to limit the use of the
> address space it allocates to it's service region. I do not think a similar
> policy proposal would fly in the RIPE community.
>
> We live in a global world, most large companies have operations in more
> than one region. I think these organisations should have only one RIR
> handle their addresses and the RIRs should mirror the databases of the
> other RIRs to avoid duplicate registration. My impression is that the RIPE
> NCC is the only RIR that is currently mirroring the other RIR databases and
> making steps towards what I think should become at some point a unique
> point of data collection.
>
> cheers,
> elvis
>
> PS: the views above are my own and have nothing to do with my previous or
> current employer
>
>
> On 05/06/14 14:23, CJ Aronson wrote:
>
> I asked a colleague at the RIPE NCC regarding this question of getting
> address space from RIPE.
>
>  She said, "We accept organisations that are
> incorporated in other regions as members. But we require that the
> address space we allocate will be used/announced in the RIPE NCC service
> region."
>
>  ----Cathy
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:31 PM, CJ Aronson <cja at daydream.com> wrote:
>
>> Let's be clear.. the RIPE NCC will only give a one-time /22 for your 1600
>> Euros/year.   RIPE has always made applicants prove a business presense in
>> the region and I believe that's what the
>> "
>>
>>    -
>>
>>    The name of the "Chamber of Commerce" where your company is registered
>>     -
>>
>>       For example, Companies House, KvK etc."
>>
>> Is referring to.  The link is here for your reference:
>>
>> http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/application
>>
>>  You'll have to apply and see.
>>
>>  If you want more than a /22 you'll have to go to the transfer market.
>>
>>  ----Cathy
>>
>>
>>  On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Elvis Velea <elvis at velea.eu> wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi John,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/06/14 04:05, John Von Stein wrote:
>>>
>>>  Elvis,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So does that mean a US based ISP such as QxC wanted / needed an
>>> additional IPv4 allocation we could simply go to RIPE and get the IPv4 we
>>> want/need?
>>>
>>>
>>>  yup :) and only for €1600/year and with no transfer fees :)
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> elvis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> John W. Von Stein
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: cid:sigimg0 at 791f5d9d52446f85c6fed00adec61823]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 102 NE 2nd Street
>>>
>>> Suite 136
>>>
>>> Boca Raton, FL 33432
>>>
>>> Office: 561-288-6989
>>>
>>> www.QxCcommunications.com <http://www.qxccommunications.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
>>> addressed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
>>> <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>] On Behalf Of Elvis Velea
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:35 PM
>>> To: David Huberman
>>> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi David,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> even further... for those that do not know yet, any legal or private
>>> person can become a member of the RIPE NCC while the ARIN
>>> policies/procedures still require a company to have a legal presence in the
>>> ARIN region in order to request resources.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And, btw.. have I already mentioned that the RIPE Community has
>>> completely removed the demonstrated need from their policy? I think I was
>>> only discussing this matter in the APNIC mailing lists and maybe those
>>> subscribed to this mailing list should also be aware of.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>
>>> elvis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/06/14 03:30, David Huberman wrote:
>>>
>>> > I agree completely, Elvis.  There's an argument to be made that if
>>> ARIN won't be flexible with transfer policy, that RIPE becomes the most
>>> useful RIR for operators to work within.  There's a further argument that's
>>> been made that the time for regional IRs may be passed (past?) and that
>>> IETF should review the situation.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > David R Huberman
>>>
>>> > Microsoft Corporation
>>>
>>> > Senior IT/OPS Program Manager (GFS)
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > ________________________________________
>>>
>>> > From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on
>>>
>>> > behalf of Elvis Velea <elvis at velea.eu>
>>>
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:21:52 PM
>>>
>>> > To: arin-ppml at arin.net
>>>
>>> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Hi David,
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > On 05/06/14 02:21, David Huberman wrote:
>>>
>>> >> We're going to be a cross-roads very soon.  ARIN is going to exhaust,
>>> and network operators will be unable to obtain additional IPv4 address
>>> blocks from ARIN.  At that point, the most obvious solution for IPv4 needs
>>> will be the market.
>>>
>>> > And then, they will be able to register as RIPE NCC members (LIRs) and
>>>
>>> > receive as many IP addresses as they want without having to prove any
>>>
>>> > demonstrated need. All they will need to do is to confirm that they
>>>
>>> > will use these addresses for themselves or their customers.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >>    Proper stewardship of the ARIN function demands that ARIN policy
>>> adjust to what happens in the market.  It's not the other way around, if
>>> only because that's not how markets work.
>>>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> >> The ARIN CEO, ARIN's General Counsel, the Harvard economist ARIN
>>> pays, professors who study markets, brokers who operate in the market, and
>>> buyers and sellers who buy and sell in the market have all told the ARIN
>>> community the same story for around 5 years now: the market is going to act
>>> as a market, and ARIN policy needs to be ready for it; ARIN policy needs to
>>> make sense with the dynamics of the market.
>>>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> >> It's hard to know how to argue with operators like Owen and the
>>>
>>> >> Google folks who all say the opposite; that ARIN policy should stick
>>>
>>> >> to the same ideals as 1995 (important ideals for a very long time!)
>>>
>>> >> and not adjust.  I fear the results of this kind of ostracism :(
>>>
>>> > Well, then let them slowly kill the ARIN function. If all ARIN members
>>>
>>> > can no longer get resources and they stop paying and go to the
>>>
>>> > cheapest RIR (which btw is RIPE NCC with EUR1600/year no matter how
>>>
>>> > many resources one has) and get as many resources they want... what do
>>>
>>> > you think will happen?
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > cheers,
>>>
>>> > elvis
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> > PPML
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
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