[arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers

Elvis Velea elvis at velea.eu
Thu Jun 5 09:12:18 EDT 2014


Hi Cathy,

how can one verify where address space is used? Do you verify the AS 
announcing it, and what if that AS is globally routed and it peers with 
various organisations within several service regions? Do you ping the 
address to see how long it takes for the Pong to come back to you?
These RIR bordes are artificial and have nothing to do with operational 
reality. One can route the address space it gets from/to anywhere in the 
world, especially if it has a Tier1/2 provider which offers global services.

There has been a simple workaround available for years. Have a look at 
the RIPE Database split files and see how many inetnums have country 
code US. You will be surprised :)
You can always announce a /16 in the RIPE region and two /17s in the 
ARIN region and then the 'requirement' of having the space announced in 
the RIPE region is satisfied, right?
It's just that all the traffic will flow to the router announcing the 
two /17s.
Plus, the RIPE NCC allocates only a /22 from the last /8. So, if you 
become a member and have a router somewhere in Europe where you will 
need to use at least a few addresses and therefore you qualify to 
receive the /22. RIPE NCC will not complain if the /24 used for that 
router/equipment is announced in the RIPE region and the rest in an 
other region where you may have other equipment and/or customers.
Additionally, once you are a member and request a transfer, the only 
thing you need to fill in is the transfer agreement template and confirm 
that you are requesting the transfer in order to make assignments from 
the allocation. It does not matter to whom you make those assignments or 
where these will be used.
http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/ipv4-transfers/transfer-agreement-template
Lastly, the RIPE NCC SSA (the contract) does not say anything about 
where the resources can be used and the _current policies_ are at best 
*vague*.

For example, the RIPE IPv4 policy says:
"1.0 Introduction
The RIPE NCC is an independent association and serves as one of five 
Regional Internet Registries (RIRs). Its service region incorporates 
Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia. The RIPE NCC is responsible 
for the allocation and assignment of Internet Protocol (IP) address 
space, Autonomous System Numbers (ASNs) and the management of reverse 
domain names within this region.
[...]
1.1 Scope
This document describes the policies for the responsible management of 
globally unique IPv4 Internet address space in the RIPE NCC service 
region. The policies documented here apply to all IPv4 address space 
allocated and assigned by the RIPE NCC."

There is no document saying that the address space allocated by the RIPE 
NCC can only be used in the RIPE service region.

As far as I have seen ARIN is only now trying to limit the use of the 
address space it allocates to it's service region. I do not think a 
similar policy proposal would fly in the RIPE community.

We live in a global world, most large companies have operations in more 
than one region. I think these organisations should have only one RIR 
handle their addresses and the RIRs should mirror the databases of the 
other RIRs to avoid duplicate registration. My impression is that the 
RIPE NCC is the only RIR that is currently mirroring the other RIR 
databases and making steps towards what I think should become at some 
point a unique point of data collection.

cheers,
elvis

PS: the views above are my own and have nothing to do with my previous 
or current employer

On 05/06/14 14:23, CJ Aronson wrote:
> I asked a colleague at the RIPE NCC regarding this question of getting 
> address space from RIPE.
>
> She said, "We accept organisations that are
> incorporated in other regions as members. But we require that the
> address space we allocate will be used/announced in the RIPE NCC service
> region."
>
> ----Cathy
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:31 PM, CJ Aronson <cja at daydream.com 
> <mailto:cja at daydream.com>> wrote:
>
>     Let's be clear.. the RIPE NCC will only give a one-time /22 for
>     your 1600 Euros/year.   RIPE has always made applicants prove a
>     business presense in the region and I believe that's what the
>     "
>
>      *
>
>         The name of the "Chamber of Commerce" where your company is
>         registered
>
>          o
>
>             For example, Companies House, KvK etc."
>
>     Is referring to.  The link is here for your reference:
>     http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/application
>
>     You'll have to apply and see.
>
>     If you want more than a /22 you'll have to go to the transfer market.
>
>     ----Cathy
>
>
>     On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Elvis Velea <elvis at velea.eu
>     <mailto:elvis at velea.eu>> wrote:
>
>         Hi John,
>
>
>         On 05/06/14 04:05, John Von Stein wrote:
>>
>>         Elvis,
>>
>>         So does that mean a US based ISP such as QxC wanted / needed
>>         an additional IPv4 allocation we could simply go to RIPE and
>>         get the IPv4 we want/need?
>>
>
>         yup :) and only for €1600/year and with no transfer fees :)
>
>         cheers,
>         elvis
>
>>         Thank you,
>>
>>         John W. Von Stein
>>
>>         cid:sigimg0 at 791f5d9d52446f85c6fed00adec61823
>>
>>         102 NE 2^nd Street
>>
>>         Suite 136
>>
>>         Boca Raton, FL 33432
>>
>>         Office: 561-288-6989 <tel:561-288-6989>
>>
>>         www.QxCcommunications.com <http://www.qxccommunications.com/>
>>
>>         This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
>>         and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity
>>         to whom they are addressed.
>>
>>         -----Original Message-----
>>         From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
>>         <mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>
>>         [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Elvis Velea
>>         Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:35 PM
>>         To: David Huberman
>>         Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
>>         Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>>
>>         Hi David,
>>
>>         even further... for those that do not know yet, any legal or
>>         private person can become a member of the RIPE NCC while the
>>         ARIN policies/procedures still require a company to have a
>>         legal presence in the ARIN region in order to request resources.
>>
>>         And, btw.. have I already mentioned that the RIPE Community
>>         has completely removed the demonstrated need from their
>>         policy? I think I was only discussing this matter in the
>>         APNIC mailing lists and maybe those subscribed to this
>>         mailing list should also be aware of.
>>
>>         cheers,
>>
>>         elvis
>>
>>         On 05/06/14 03:30, David Huberman wrote:
>>
>>         > I agree completely, Elvis. There's an argument to be made
>>         that if ARIN won't be flexible with transfer policy, that
>>         RIPE becomes the most useful RIR for operators to work
>>         within.  There's a further argument that's been made that the
>>         time for regional IRs may be passed (past?) and that IETF
>>         should review the situation.
>>
>>         >
>>
>>         > David R Huberman
>>
>>         > Microsoft Corporation
>>
>>         > Senior IT/OPS Program Manager (GFS)
>>
>>         >
>>
>>         > ________________________________________
>>
>>         > From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
>>         <mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>
>>         <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
>>         <mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>> on
>>
>>         > behalf of Elvis Velea <elvis at velea.eu <mailto:elvis at velea.eu>>
>>
>>         > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:21:52 PM
>>
>>         > To: arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
>>
>>         > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>>
>>         >
>>
>>         > Hi David,
>>
>>         >
>>
>>         > On 05/06/14 02:21, David Huberman wrote:
>>
>>         >> We're going to be a cross-roads very soon.  ARIN is going
>>         to exhaust, and network operators will be unable to obtain
>>         additional IPv4 address blocks from ARIN.  At that point, the
>>         most obvious solution for IPv4 needs will be the market.
>>
>>         > And then, they will be able to register as RIPE NCC members
>>         (LIRs) and
>>
>>         > receive as many IP addresses as they want without having to
>>         prove any
>>
>>         > demonstrated need. All they will need to do is to confirm
>>         that they
>>
>>         > will use these addresses for themselves or their customers.
>>
>>         >
>>
>>         >>    Proper stewardship of the ARIN function demands that
>>         ARIN policy adjust to what happens in the market. It's not
>>         the other way around, if only because that's not how markets
>>         work.
>>
>>         >>
>>
>>         >> The ARIN CEO, ARIN's General Counsel, the Harvard
>>         economist ARIN pays, professors who study markets, brokers
>>         who operate in the market, and buyers and sellers who buy and
>>         sell in the market have all told the ARIN community the same
>>         story for around 5 years now: the market is going to act as a
>>         market, and ARIN policy needs to be ready for it; ARIN policy
>>         needs to make sense with the dynamics of the market.
>>
>>         >>
>>
>>         >> It's hard to know how to argue with operators like Owen
>>         and the
>>
>>         >> Google folks who all say the opposite; that ARIN policy
>>         should stick
>>
>>         >> to the same ideals as 1995 (important ideals for a very
>>         long time!)
>>
>>         >> and not adjust.  I fear the results of this kind of
>>         ostracism :(
>>
>>         > Well, then let them slowly kill the ARIN function. If all
>>         ARIN members
>>
>>         > can no longer get resources and they stop paying and go to the
>>
>>         > cheapest RIR (which btw is RIPE NCC with EUR1600/year no
>>         matter how
>>
>>         > many resources one has) and get as many resources they
>>         want... what do
>>
>>         > you think will happen?
>>
>>         >
>>
>>         > cheers,
>>
>>         > elvis
>>
>>         >
>>
>>         >
>>
>>         > _______________________________________________
>>
>>         > PPML
>>
>>         > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed
>>         to the ARIN
>>
>>         > Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net
>>         <mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net>).
>>
>>         > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>
>>         > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>>
>>         > Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if you
>>         experience any issues.
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>
>>         PPML
>>
>>         You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>         the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net
>>         <mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net>).
>>
>>         Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>
>>         http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>>
>>         Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if you
>>         experience any issues.
>>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         PPML
>         You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>         the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net
>         <mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net>).
>         Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>         http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>         Please contact info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if you
>         experience any issues.
>
>
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20140605/ebc87926/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 2999 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20140605/ebc87926/attachment.jpe>


More information about the ARIN-PPML mailing list