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Hi Cathy,<br>
<br>
how can one verify where address space is used? Do you verify the AS
announcing it, and what if that AS is globally routed and it peers
with various organisations within several service regions? Do you
ping the address to see how long it takes for the Pong to come back
to you? <br>
These RIR bordes are artificial and have nothing to do with
operational reality. One can route the address space it gets from/to
anywhere in the world, especially if it has a Tier1/2 provider which
offers global services.<br>
<br>
There has been a simple workaround available for years. Have a look
at the RIPE Database split files and see how many inetnums have
country code US. You will be surprised :)<br>
You can always announce a /16 in the RIPE region and two /17s in the
ARIN region and then the 'requirement' of having the space announced
in the RIPE region is satisfied, right?<br>
It's just that all the traffic will flow to the router announcing
the two /17s. <br>
Plus, the RIPE NCC allocates only a /22 from the last /8. So, if you
become a member and have a router somewhere in Europe where you will
need to use at least a few addresses and therefore you qualify to
receive the /22. RIPE NCC will not complain if the /24 used for that
router/equipment is announced in the RIPE region and the rest in an
other region where you may have other equipment and/or customers.<br>
Additionally, once you are a member and request a transfer, the only
thing you need to fill in is the transfer agreement template and
confirm that you are requesting the transfer in order to make
assignments from the allocation. It does not matter to whom you make
those assignments or where these will be used.<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/ipv4-transfers/transfer-agreement-template">http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/ipv4-transfers/transfer-agreement-template</a><br>
Lastly, the RIPE NCC SSA (the contract) does not say anything about
where the resources can be used and the _current policies_ are at
best *vague*. <br>
<br>
For example, the RIPE IPv4 policy says:<br>
<tt>"1.0 Introduction</tt>
<meta charset="utf-8">
<tt><span style="color: rgb(38, 38, 38); font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 16.8px; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; display: inline ! important; float: none;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
The RIPE NCC is an independent association and serves as one of
five Regional Internet Registries (RIRs). Its service region
incorporates Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia. The RIPE
NCC is responsible for the allocation and assignment of Internet
Protocol (IP) address space, Autonomous System Numbers (ASNs)
and the management of reverse domain names within this region.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"><br>
[...]<br>
1.1 Scope</span></span></tt><tt><br>
</tt>
<meta charset="utf-8">
<span style="color: rgb(38, 38, 38); font-family: Helvetica, Arial,
FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: 16.799999237060547px; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float:
none; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><tt>This document
describes the policies for the responsible management of
globally unique IPv4 Internet address space in the RIPE NCC
service region. The policies documented here apply to all IPv4
address space allocated and assigned by the RIPE NCC.</tt><span
class="Apple-converted-space"><tt>"</tt><br>
</span></span>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
There is no document saying that the address space allocated by
the RIPE NCC can only be used in the RIPE service region.<br>
<br>
As far as I have seen ARIN is only now trying to limit the use of
the address space it allocates to it's service region. I do not
think a similar policy proposal would fly in the RIPE community.<br>
<br>
We live in a global world, most large companies have operations in
more than one region. I think these organisations should have only
one RIR handle their addresses and the RIRs should mirror the
databases of the other RIRs to avoid duplicate registration. My
impression is that the RIPE NCC is the only RIR that is currently
mirroring the other RIR databases and making steps towards what I
think should become at some point a unique point of data
collection.<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
elvis<br>
<br>
PS: the views above are my own and have nothing to do with my
previous or current employer<br>
<br>
On 05/06/14 14:23, CJ Aronson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAC6JZKRynkPsjqwdF8rm5WpgCWZwcKQmMrc-aqjEquNky9GJjQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I asked a colleague at the RIPE NCC regarding this
question of getting address space from RIPE.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>She said, "<span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">We
accept organisations that are</span><br
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">
<span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">incorporated
in other regions as members. But we require that the</span><br
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">
<span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">address
space we allocate will be used/announced in the RIPE NCC
service</span><br
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">
<span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">region."</span>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12.666666984558105px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12.666666984558105px">----Cathy<br>
</span></font>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:31 PM, CJ
Aronson <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cja@daydream.com" target="_blank">cja@daydream.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Let's be clear.. the RIPE NCC will only give
a one-time /22 for your 1600 Euros/year. RIPE has always
made applicants prove a business presense in the region
and I believe that's what the
<div>
"
<ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px
2em;padding:0px;list-style-position:initial;color:rgb(38,38,38);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,FreeSans,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px">
<li style="margin:0px 0px
0.25em;padding:0px;line-height:1.4em">
<p style="margin:0px 0px 0.5em;padding:0px">The name
of the "Chamber of Commerce" where your company is
registered</p>
</li>
<ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px
2em;padding:0px;list-style-position:initial">
<li style="margin:0px 0px
0.25em;padding:0px;line-height:1.4em">
<p style="margin:0px 0px 0.5em;padding:0px">For
example, Companies House, KvK etc."</p>
</li>
</ul>
</ul>
<div><font color="#262626" face="Helvetica, Arial,
FreeSans, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px">Is
referring to. The link is here for your
reference:</span></font></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px;color:rgb(38,38,38);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,FreeSans,sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/application"
target="_blank">http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/application</a></span><br>
</div>
<div><font color="#262626" face="Helvetica, Arial,
FreeSans, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#262626" face="Helvetica, Arial,
FreeSans, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px">You'll
have to apply and see. </span></font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you want more than a /22 you'll have to go to
the transfer market. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>----Cathy</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Elvis Velea <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu" target="_blank">elvis@velea.eu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hi John,
<div><br>
<br>
<div>On 05/06/14 04:05, John Von Stein wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p>Elvis, </p>
<p> </p>
<p>So does that mean a US based ISP such
as QxC wanted / needed an additional
IPv4 allocation we could simply go to
RIPE and get the IPv4 we want/need? </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
yup :) and only for €1600/year and with no
transfer fees :)<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
elvis
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d">Thank you,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d">John W. Von
Stein</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"><img
src="cid:part4.09070602.09090201@velea.eu"
alt="cid:sigimg0@791f5d9d52446f85c6fed00adec61823"
height="78" width="122"></span><span
style="color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="color:#1f497d">102 NE 2<sup>nd</sup>
Street</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="color:#1f497d">Suite 136</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d">Boca Raton, FL
33432</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d">Office: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:561-288-6989"
value="+15612886989"
target="_blank">561-288-6989</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.qxccommunications.com/"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:blue">www.QxCcommunications.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">This
email and any files transmitted with
it are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual
or entity to whom they are
addressed.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
target="_blank">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]
On Behalf Of Elvis Velea<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:35 PM<br>
To: David Huberman<br>
Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs
basis in 8.3 transfers</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hi David,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>even further... for those that do not
know yet, any legal or private person
can become a member of the RIPE NCC
while the ARIN policies/procedures
still require a company to have a
legal presence in the ARIN region in
order to request resources.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And, btw.. have I already mentioned
that the RIPE Community has completely
removed the demonstrated need from
their policy? I think I was only
discussing this matter in the APNIC
mailing lists and maybe those
subscribed to this mailing list should
also be aware of.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>cheers,</p>
<p>elvis</p>
<p> </p>
<p>On 05/06/14 03:30, David Huberman
wrote:</p>
<p>> I agree completely, Elvis.
There's an argument to be made that if
ARIN won't be flexible with transfer
policy, that RIPE becomes the most
useful RIR for operators to work
within. There's a further argument
that's been made that the time for
regional IRs may be passed (past?) and
that IETF should review the situation.</p>
<p>> </p>
<p>> David R Huberman</p>
<p>> Microsoft Corporation</p>
<p>> Senior IT/OPS Program Manager
(GFS)</p>
<p>> </p>
<p>>
________________________________________</p>
<p>> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>>
on </p>
<p>> behalf of Elvis Velea <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">elvis@velea.eu</span></a>></p>
<p>> Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014
6:21:52 PM</p>
<p>> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a></p>
<p>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About
needs basis in 8.3 transfers</p>
<p>> </p>
<p>> Hi David,</p>
<p>> </p>
<p>> On 05/06/14 02:21, David
Huberman wrote:</p>
<p>>> We're going to be a
cross-roads very soon. ARIN is going
to exhaust, and network operators will
be unable to obtain additional IPv4
address blocks from ARIN. At that
point, the most obvious solution for
IPv4 needs will be the market.</p>
<p>> And then, they will be able to
register as RIPE NCC members (LIRs)
and </p>
<p>> receive as many IP addresses as
they want without having to prove any
</p>
<p>> demonstrated need. All they will
need to do is to confirm that they </p>
<p>> will use these addresses for
themselves or their customers.</p>
<p>> </p>
<p>>> Proper stewardship of the
ARIN function demands that ARIN policy
adjust to what happens in the market.
It's not the other way around, if only
because that's not how markets work.</p>
<p>>> </p>
<p>>> The ARIN CEO, ARIN's General
Counsel, the Harvard economist ARIN
pays, professors who study markets,
brokers who operate in the market, and
buyers and sellers who buy and sell in
the market have all told the ARIN
community the same story for around 5
years now: the market is going to act
as a market, and ARIN policy needs to
be ready for it; ARIN policy needs to
make sense with the dynamics of the
market.</p>
<p>>> </p>
<p>>> It's hard to know how to
argue with operators like Owen and the
</p>
<p>>> Google folks who all say the
opposite; that ARIN policy should
stick </p>
<p>>> to the same ideals as 1995
(important ideals for a very long
time!) </p>
<p>>> and not adjust. I fear the
results of this kind of ostracism :(</p>
<p>> Well, then let them slowly kill
the ARIN function. If all ARIN members
</p>
<p>> can no longer get resources and
they stop paying and go to the </p>
<p>> cheapest RIR (which btw is RIPE
NCC with EUR1600/year no matter how </p>
<p>> many resources one has) and get
as many resources they want... what do
</p>
<p>> you think will happen?</p>
<p>> </p>
<p>> cheers,</p>
<p>> elvis</p>
<p>> </p>
<p>> </p>
<p>>
_______________________________________________</p>
<p>> PPML</p>
<p>> You are receiving this message
because you are subscribed to the ARIN
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<p>> Unsubscribe or manage your
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