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    Hi Cathy,<br>
    <br>
    how can one verify where address space is used? Do you verify the AS
    announcing it, and what if that AS is globally routed and it peers
    with various organisations within several service regions? Do you
    ping the address to see how long it takes for the Pong to come back
    to you? <br>
    These RIR bordes are artificial and have nothing to do with
    operational reality. One can route the address space it gets from/to
    anywhere in the world, especially if it has a Tier1/2 provider which
    offers global services.<br>
    <br>
    There has been a simple workaround available for years. Have a look
    at the RIPE Database split files and see how many inetnums have
    country code US. You will be surprised :)<br>
    You can always announce a /16 in the RIPE region and two /17s in the
    ARIN region and then the 'requirement' of having the space announced
    in the RIPE region is satisfied, right?<br>
    It's just that all the traffic will flow to the router announcing
    the two /17s. <br>
    Plus, the RIPE NCC allocates only a /22 from the last /8. So, if you
    become a member and have a router somewhere in Europe where you will
    need to use at least a few addresses and therefore you qualify to
    receive the /22. RIPE NCC will not complain if the /24 used for that
    router/equipment is announced in the RIPE region and the rest in an
    other region where you may have other equipment and/or customers.<br>
    Additionally, once you are a member and request a transfer, the only
    thing you need to fill in is the transfer agreement template and
    confirm that you are requesting the transfer in order to make
    assignments from the allocation. It does not matter to whom you make
    those assignments or where these will be used.<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/ipv4-transfers/transfer-agreement-template">http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/ipv4-transfers/transfer-agreement-template</a><br>
    Lastly, the RIPE NCC SSA (the contract) does not say anything about
    where the resources can be used and the _current policies_ are at
    best *vague*. <br>
    <br>
    For example, the RIPE IPv4 policy says:<br>
    <tt>"1.0 Introduction</tt>
    <meta charset="utf-8">
    <tt><span style="color: rgb(38, 38, 38); font-size: 12px;
        font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
        letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 16.8px; text-align: start;
        text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
        word-spacing: 0px; display: inline ! important; float: none;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
        The RIPE NCC is an independent association and serves as one of
        five Regional Internet Registries (RIRs). Its service region
        incorporates Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia. The RIPE
        NCC is responsible for the allocation and assignment of Internet
        Protocol (IP) address space, Autonomous System Numbers (ASNs)
        and the management of reverse domain names within this region.<span
          class="Apple-converted-space"><br>
          [...]<br>
          1.1 Scope</span></span></tt><tt><br>
    </tt>
    <meta charset="utf-8">
    <span style="color: rgb(38, 38, 38); font-family: Helvetica, Arial,
      FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
      font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
      line-height: 16.799999237060547px; orphans: auto; text-align:
      start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
      normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
      -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float:
      none; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><tt>This document
        describes the policies for the responsible management of
        globally unique IPv4 Internet address space in the RIPE NCC
        service region. The policies documented here apply to all IPv4
        address space allocated and assigned by the RIPE NCC.</tt><span
        class="Apple-converted-space"><tt>"</tt><br>
      </span></span>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
      There is no document saying that the address space allocated by
      the RIPE NCC can only be used in the RIPE service region.<br>
      <br>
      As far as I have seen ARIN is only now trying to limit the use of
      the address space it allocates to it's service region. I do not
      think a similar policy proposal would fly in the RIPE community.<br>
      <br>
      We live in a global world, most large companies have operations in
      more than one region. I think these organisations should have only
      one RIR handle their addresses and the RIRs should mirror the
      databases of the other RIRs to avoid duplicate registration. My
      impression is that the RIPE NCC is the only RIR that is currently
      mirroring the other RIR databases and making steps towards what I
      think should become at some point a unique point of data
      collection.<br>
      <br>
      cheers,<br>
      elvis<br>
      <br>
      PS: the views above are my own and have nothing to do with my
      previous or current employer<br>
      <br>
      On 05/06/14 14:23, CJ Aronson wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAC6JZKRynkPsjqwdF8rm5WpgCWZwcKQmMrc-aqjEquNky9GJjQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">I asked a colleague at the RIPE NCC regarding this
        question of getting address space from RIPE.  
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>She said, "<span
            style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">We
            accept organisations that are</span><br
            style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">
          <span
            style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">incorporated
            in other regions as members. But we require that the</span><br
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">
          <span
            style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">address
            space we allocate will be used/announced in the RIPE NCC
            service</span><br
            style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">
          <span
            style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.666666984558105px">region."</span>
          <div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span
                style="font-size:12.666666984558105px"><br>
              </span></font></div>
          <div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span
                style="font-size:12.666666984558105px">----Cathy<br>
              </span></font>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:31 PM, CJ
          Aronson <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:cja@daydream.com" target="_blank">cja@daydream.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">Let's be clear.. the RIPE NCC will only give
              a one-time /22 for your 1600 Euros/year.   RIPE has always
              made applicants prove a business presense in the region
              and I believe that's what the 
              <div>
                "
                <ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px
2em;padding:0px;list-style-position:initial;color:rgb(38,38,38);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,FreeSans,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px">
                  <li style="margin:0px 0px
                    0.25em;padding:0px;line-height:1.4em">
                    <p style="margin:0px 0px 0.5em;padding:0px">The name
                      of the "Chamber of Commerce" where your company is
                      registered</p>
                  </li>
                  <ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                    2em;padding:0px;list-style-position:initial">
                    <li style="margin:0px 0px
                      0.25em;padding:0px;line-height:1.4em">
                      <p style="margin:0px 0px 0.5em;padding:0px">For
                        example, Companies House, KvK etc."</p>
                    </li>
                  </ul>
                </ul>
                <div><font color="#262626" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                    FreeSans, sans-serif"><span
                      style="font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px">Is
                      referring to.  The link is here for your
                      reference:</span></font></div>
                <div><span
style="font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px;color:rgb(38,38,38);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,FreeSans,sans-serif"><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/application"
                      target="_blank">http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/application</a></span><br>
                </div>
                <div><font color="#262626" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                    FreeSans, sans-serif"><span
                      style="font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px"><br>
                    </span></font></div>
                <div><font color="#262626" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                    FreeSans, sans-serif"><span
                      style="font-size:12px;line-height:16.80000114440918px">You'll
                      have to apply and see.   </span></font></div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>If you want more than a /22 you'll have to go to
                  the transfer market.  </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>----Cathy</div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class="HOEnZb">
              <div class="h5">
                <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Elvis Velea <span
                      dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu" target="_blank">elvis@velea.eu</a>></span>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Hi John,
                        <div><br>
                          <br>
                          <div>On 05/06/14 04:05, John Von Stein wrote:<br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div>
                              <p>Elvis, </p>
                              <p> </p>
                              <p>So does that mean a US based ISP such
                                as QxC wanted / needed an additional
                                IPv4 allocation we could simply go to
                                RIPE and get the IPv4 we want/need? </p>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                        yup :) and only for €1600/year and with no
                        transfer fees :)<br>
                        <br>
                        cheers,<br>
                        elvis
                        <div>
                          <div><br>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div>
                                <p> </p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d">Thank you,</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d">John W. Von
                                    Stein</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"><img
src="cid:part4.09070602.09090201@velea.eu"
                                      alt="cid:sigimg0@791f5d9d52446f85c6fed00adec61823"
                                      height="78" width="122"></span><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="text-autospace:none"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="text-autospace:none"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d">102 NE 2<sup>nd</sup>
                                    Street</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="text-autospace:none"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d">Suite 136</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d">Boca Raton, FL
                                    33432</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d">Office: <a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="tel:561-288-6989"
                                      value="+15612886989"
                                      target="_blank">561-288-6989</a></span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d"><a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="http://www.qxccommunications.com/"
                                      target="_blank"><span
                                        style="color:blue">www.QxCcommunications.com</span></a></span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">This

                                    email and any files transmitted with
                                    it are confidential and intended
                                    solely for the use of the individual
                                    or entity to whom they are
                                    addressed.</span></p>
                                <p> </p>
                                <p>-----Original Message-----<br>
                                  From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
                                  [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]
                                  On Behalf Of Elvis Velea<br>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:35 PM<br>
                                  To: David Huberman<br>
                                  Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
                                  Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs
                                  basis in 8.3 transfers</p>
                                <p> </p>
                                <p>Hi David,</p>
                                <p> </p>
                                <p>even further... for those that do not
                                  know yet, any legal or private person
                                  can become a member of the RIPE NCC
                                  while the ARIN policies/procedures
                                  still require a company to have a
                                  legal presence in the ARIN region in
                                  order to request resources.</p>
                                <p> </p>
                                <p>And, btw.. have I already mentioned
                                  that the RIPE Community has completely
                                  removed the demonstrated need from
                                  their policy? I think I was only
                                  discussing this matter in the APNIC
                                  mailing lists and maybe those
                                  subscribed to this mailing list should
                                  also be aware of.</p>
                                <p> </p>
                                <p>cheers,</p>
                                <p>elvis</p>
                                <p> </p>
                                <p>On 05/06/14 03:30, David Huberman
                                  wrote:</p>
                                <p>> I agree completely, Elvis. 
                                  There's an argument to be made that if
                                  ARIN won't be flexible with transfer
                                  policy, that RIPE becomes the most
                                  useful RIR for operators to work
                                  within.  There's a further argument
                                  that's been made that the time for
                                  regional IRs may be passed (past?) and
                                  that IETF should review the situation.</p>
                                <p>> </p>
                                <p>> David R Huberman</p>
                                <p>> Microsoft Corporation</p>
                                <p>> Senior IT/OPS Program Manager
                                  (GFS)</p>
                                <p>> </p>
                                <p>>
                                  ________________________________________</p>
                                <p>> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>
                                  <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>>


                                  on </p>
                                <p>> behalf of Elvis Velea <<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu"
                                    target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">elvis@velea.eu</span></a>></p>
                                <p>> Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014
                                  6:21:52 PM</p>
                                <p>> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a></p>
                                <p>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About
                                  needs basis in 8.3 transfers</p>
                                <p>> </p>
                                <p>> Hi David,</p>
                                <p>> </p>
                                <p>> On 05/06/14 02:21, David
                                  Huberman wrote:</p>
                                <p>>> We're going to be a
                                  cross-roads very soon.  ARIN is going
                                  to exhaust, and network operators will
                                  be unable to obtain additional IPv4
                                  address blocks from ARIN.  At that
                                  point, the most obvious solution for
                                  IPv4 needs will be the market.</p>
                                <p>> And then, they will be able to
                                  register as RIPE NCC members (LIRs)
                                  and </p>
                                <p>> receive as many IP addresses as
                                  they want without having to prove any
                                </p>
                                <p>> demonstrated need. All they will
                                  need to do is to confirm that they </p>
                                <p>> will use these addresses for
                                  themselves or their customers.</p>
                                <p>> </p>
                                <p>>>    Proper stewardship of the
                                  ARIN function demands that ARIN policy
                                  adjust to what happens in the market. 
                                  It's not the other way around, if only
                                  because that's not how markets work.</p>
                                <p>>> </p>
                                <p>>> The ARIN CEO, ARIN's General
                                  Counsel, the Harvard economist ARIN
                                  pays, professors who study markets,
                                  brokers who operate in the market, and
                                  buyers and sellers who buy and sell in
                                  the market have all told the ARIN
                                  community the same story for around 5
                                  years now: the market is going to act
                                  as a market, and ARIN policy needs to
                                  be ready for it; ARIN policy needs to
                                  make sense with the dynamics of the
                                  market.</p>
                                <p>>> </p>
                                <p>>> It's hard to know how to
                                  argue with operators like Owen and the
                                </p>
                                <p>>> Google folks who all say the
                                  opposite; that ARIN policy should
                                  stick </p>
                                <p>>> to the same ideals as 1995
                                  (important ideals for a very long
                                  time!) </p>
                                <p>>> and not adjust.  I fear the
                                  results of this kind of ostracism :(</p>
                                <p>> Well, then let them slowly kill
                                  the ARIN function. If all ARIN members
                                </p>
                                <p>> can no longer get resources and
                                  they stop paying and go to the </p>
                                <p>> cheapest RIR (which btw is RIPE
                                  NCC with EUR1600/year no matter how </p>
                                <p>> many resources one has) and get
                                  as many resources they want... what do
                                </p>
                                <p>> you think will happen?</p>
                                <p>> </p>
                                <p>> cheers,</p>
                                <p>> elvis</p>
                                <p>> </p>
                                <p>> </p>
                                <p>>
                                  _______________________________________________</p>
                                <p>> PPML</p>
                                <p>> You are receiving this message
                                  because you are subscribed to the ARIN
                                </p>
                                <p>> Public Policy Mailing List (<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a>).</p>
                                <p>> Unsubscribe or manage your
                                  mailing list subscription at:</p>
                                <p>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
                                    target="_blank"> <span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</span></a></p>
                                <p>> Please contact <a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:info@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">info@arin.net</span></a>
                                  if you experience any issues.</p>
                                <p> </p>
                                <p>_______________________________________________</p>
                                <p>PPML</p>
                                <p>You are receiving this message
                                  because you are subscribed to the ARIN
                                  Public Policy Mailing List (<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a>).</p>
                                <p>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing
                                  list subscription at:</p>
                                <p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
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                                    target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</span></a></p>
                                <p>Please contact <a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:info@arin.net"
                                    target="_blank"><span
                                      style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">info@arin.net</span></a>
                                  if you experience any issues.</p>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <br>
                          </div>
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                      </div>
                      <br>
                      _______________________________________________<br>
                      PPML<br>
                      You are receiving this message because you are
                      subscribed to<br>
                      the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
                      Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list
                      subscription at:<br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
                        target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
                      Please contact <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank">info@arin.net</a>
                      if you experience any issues.<br>
                    </blockquote>
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