[arin-discuss] [arin-announce] Community Consultation: Future Direction for the ARIN Fee Schedule

[Gary Campbell]

Martin,
Why 40%? Just wondered how you came up with that percentage. At the same time I do agree that a cut in expense is always welcomed.
Regards,
Gary


On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 6:03 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net> wrote:
 




On 10/14/2014 1:09 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt<tedm at ipinc.net>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/2014 6:46 AM, Cort Buffington wrote:
>>>
>>> Disclosure: I am with a smallish statewide R&E network, an LRSA
>>> holder for 2 x /16s, and "normal" ISP holder of 1x /17 and
>>> 1x/32(IPv6). Also, I have never held any illusion that the special
>>> treatment of the LRSA holders would be permanent or even long-term. I
>>> always expected it to be a way to placate us for a few years while we
>>> adjusted to the changing world.
>>>
>>> Discussion on the Fee Schedules: Underneath the equations and
>>> calculations is a question about what ARIN is, or will be. I see two
>>> competing paradigms: * ARIN sells the right to use IP addresses and
>>> charges fees based on the number of IPs used. * ARIN provides
>>> registration and records maintenance services and charges based on
>>> the cost to provide those services.
>>>
>>> One of these describes an organization that is selling something of
>>> value, and revenue is generated based on volume of sales, with
>>> perhaps discounts for large buys (or penalties for small ones). The
>>> other describes a (probably non-profit) organization that is offering
>>> a service and charges fees based on the fair recovery of expenses in
>>> providing those services.
>>>
>>> I believe ARIN should first answer the question of what it is,
>>
>>
>> ARIN cannot do that.  We, the ARIN community, can do that.  ARIN exists
>> because we wanted it to exist, because originally IP blocks were
>> assigned off a spiral notebook
>>
>> I'm getting tired of this business which a lot of people seem to be
>> engaging in of trying to disassociate ARIN as an entity from the
>> community of RIR's ISPs, Telcos, and whoever else that has a stake
>> in IP address management.
>>
>
> More than a few people believe this is may be necessary.
>
>
>> Martin I can excuse, he's got a chip on his shoulder.  You, not so
>> much.  You have no axe to grind, please do not adopt Martin's divisive
>> language of us, we, them, etc.
>>
>
> Gee, thanks Ted. My experience, and that of many large networks, has
> not been as positive as yours may be. I'm pleased to be able to
> provide the necessary feedback to insure that ARIN does act in the
> _whole_ communities interest and am generally pleased with the
> results. Mostly.
>

Martin, you proposed nearly a 1/2 reduction in budget but
you did not say a single thing that ARIN is doing that they shouldn't be
spending money on - or that they are spending too much money on.

If your going to throw the rocks, aim for a window.

> I believe the fee structure discussion should come after a more
> vigorous debate about expenses and then fee recovery used to fund
> them. ARIN has almost $35M in reserves with a two year expense
> reserve.
>
> What do the other RIRs do with their reserves and how large are they?
>

ARIN is a target, there are many large companies and a number
of governments who I believe probably would be just as happy to see
them and the RIR system go away.  The People's Republic of China, for 
example, really views the entire Internet as a gigantic sewer talking 
about all kinds of things that they don't want their people to learn 
about - that's why they spend millions on maintaining a firewall.

I believe that PRC would be quite pleased to see the RIR system
destroyed and replaced by an open-season system where those who have
money get the access.

And I think that a lot of other governments would like the same thing.

You talk about me having a positive experience with ARIN?  Well let's
just say that I have HOPE that any interaction with ARIN is going to be
positive - but there would be absolutely no hope at all if it was a
for-profit company running things, where you had to pay through the
nose to play.

I am not going to say every single operation of ARIN's is an excellent
spend of money.  I'm still mad they didn't greenlight the Team ARIN 
movie back in '08.  ;-)  But seriously, I am glad they have SOME 
reserve. (and the Team ARIN comic was great, even if you have to dig
it out of the Wayback machine nowadays)

My view is that 35 Million in reserve means that if some crank out there 
decides to sue ARIN, their lawyer is going to have 35 million reasons 
why the case is unwinnable - it gives ARIN the ability to tell the 
cranks to kiss-off.

Unfortunately, it's too low to allow ARIN to tell the major governments
to stuff it, that is why, in my opinion, it's too low of a reserve.

>
>> ARIN as it stands is "option 2" that you have laid out.  Read ARIN's
>> charter, it's on their website.  If you think that ARIN is not living up
>> to it's charter, then a thoughtful post to this discussion list
>> as to why they aren't would be fantastic.  If you think the charter
>> needs to be changed, then once more a thoughtful post to this list would
>> be great.
>>
>> But, I see no future in continuing this discussion on terms that ASSUME
>> that ARIN is something forced on us and divorced from us.  It is not. If you
>> don't like something ARIN is doing - then take it up with the
>> rest of us - who created ARIN's policies.
>>
>> WE made ARIN and we can break it.
>
>
> If it were that simple we'd all be in a happier place.
>

They wouldn't be paying us to keep things in order if it were that 
simple, also.

If enough of the IP consumers got together and decided to replace the 
RIR system, it would happen, no question about it.

That is precisely what happened to the domain name system.  I wasn't in
favor of that move, either.  But a bunch of idealists and "ivory tower
academics" who never actually worked at a job where someone was paying
them to do ANYTHING MORE THAN FLAP THEIR LIPS about domain names, all
got together and pulled the pants down on the rest of us - and we got a 
so-called "competitive" domain name system.

And we all saw the results of that.  A big fragging mess, where you have
spammers who are now able to buy domain names by the millions from
corrupt registries, and damn near ruin email.

Where are those ivory tower academics now?  Hiding in their holes, 
that's where.  They don't have an answer to what the spammers are doing
to the domain name system nor have any of them apologized for all their
STUPIDITY when they were posting learned treatises about how much better
it was gonna be if we kicked ole Network Solutions out of the domain
name game and "opened" the system to "competition"

Yah, sure, we can have as much competition in domain names as we have
in oil producers in the world.  Sure, sure, competition is gonna help
EVERYTHING.  RUBBISH.

This is why I don't have a lot of patience with criticism that does not
point to specific things.  The domain name system was wrecked by people 
with no specific criticism but with a lot of general criticism.  I am 
not going to sit still for the RIR system being taken down the same way.

The CloudRadium fraud posting - that was great.  Very specific, 
verifiable things posted there.

But just saying ARIN needs to cut their budget, without pointing to 
anything specific?  No, Martin, I'm not going to give you a pass on 
that.   Your not a newbie, you can do the work to point to specific things.


Ted

> Best,
>
> -M<
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