<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10px"><div>Martin,</div><div>Why 40%? Just wondered how you came up with that percentage. At the same time I do agree that a cut in expense is always welcomed.</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Gary</div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 6:03 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm@ipinc.net> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">On 10/14/2014 1:09 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:<br
clear="none">> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt<<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net" href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net">tedm@ipinc.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> On 10/14/2014 6:46 AM, Cort Buffington wrote:<br clear="none">>>><br clear="none">>>> Disclosure: I am with a smallish statewide R&E network, an LRSA<br clear="none">>>> holder for 2 x /16s, and "normal" ISP holder of 1x /17 and<br clear="none">>>> 1x/32(IPv6). Also, I have never held any illusion that the special<br clear="none">>>> treatment of the LRSA holders would be permanent or even long-term. I<br clear="none">>>> always expected it to be a way to placate us for a few years while we<br clear="none">>>> adjusted to the changing world.<br clear="none">>>><br clear="none">>>> Discussion on the Fee Schedules:
Underneath the equations and<br clear="none">>>> calculations is a question about what ARIN is, or will be. I see two<br clear="none">>>> competing paradigms: * ARIN sells the right to use IP addresses and<br clear="none">>>> charges fees based on the number of IPs used. * ARIN provides<br clear="none">>>> registration and records maintenance services and charges based on<br clear="none">>>> the cost to provide those services.<br clear="none">>>><br clear="none">>>> One of these describes an organization that is selling something of<br clear="none">>>> value, and revenue is generated based on volume of sales, with<br clear="none">>>> perhaps discounts for large buys (or penalties for small ones). The<br clear="none">>>> other describes a (probably non-profit) organization that is offering<br clear="none">>>> a service and charges fees based on the fair
recovery of expenses in<br clear="none">>>> providing those services.<br clear="none">>>><br clear="none">>>> I believe ARIN should first answer the question of what it is,<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> ARIN cannot do that. We, the ARIN community, can do that. ARIN exists<br clear="none">>> because we wanted it to exist, because originally IP blocks were<br clear="none">>> assigned off a spiral notebook<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> I'm getting tired of this business which a lot of people seem to be<br clear="none">>> engaging in of trying to disassociate ARIN as an entity from the<br clear="none">>> community of RIR's ISPs, Telcos, and whoever else that has a stake<br clear="none">>> in IP address management.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> More than a few people believe this is may be
necessary.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">>> Martin I can excuse, he's got a chip on his shoulder. You, not so<br clear="none">>> much. You have no axe to grind, please do not adopt Martin's divisive<br clear="none">>> language of us, we, them, etc.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Gee, thanks Ted. My experience, and that of many large networks, has<br clear="none">> not been as positive as yours may be. I'm pleased to be able to<br clear="none">> provide the necessary feedback to insure that ARIN does act in the<br clear="none">> _whole_ communities interest and am generally pleased with the<br clear="none">> results. Mostly.<br clear="none">><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Martin, you proposed nearly a 1/2 reduction in budget but<br clear="none">you did not say a single thing that ARIN is doing that they shouldn't be<br clear="none">spending
money on - or that they are spending too much money on.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">If your going to throw the rocks, aim for a window.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> I believe the fee structure discussion should come after a more<br clear="none">> vigorous debate about expenses and then fee recovery used to fund<br clear="none">> them. ARIN has almost $35M in reserves with a two year expense<br clear="none">> reserve.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> What do the other RIRs do with their reserves and how large are they?<br clear="none">><br clear="none"><br clear="none">ARIN is a target, there are many large companies and a number<br clear="none">of governments who I believe probably would be just as happy to see<br clear="none">them and the RIR system go away. The People's Republic of China, for <br clear="none">example, really views the entire Internet as a gigantic sewer talking <br clear="none">about all kinds
of things that they don't want their people to learn <br clear="none">about - that's why they spend millions on maintaining a firewall.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I believe that PRC would be quite pleased to see the RIR system<br clear="none">destroyed and replaced by an open-season system where those who have<br clear="none">money get the access.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">And I think that a lot of other governments would like the same thing.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">You talk about me having a positive experience with ARIN? Well let's<br clear="none">just say that I have HOPE that any interaction with ARIN is going to be<br clear="none">positive - but there would be absolutely no hope at all if it was a<br clear="none">for-profit company running things, where you had to pay through the<br clear="none">nose to play.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I am not going to say every single operation of ARIN's is an excellent<br
clear="none">spend of money. I'm still mad they didn't greenlight the Team ARIN <br clear="none">movie back in '08. ;-) But seriously, I am glad they have SOME <br clear="none">reserve. (and the Team ARIN comic was great, even if you have to dig<br clear="none">it out of the Wayback machine nowadays)<br clear="none"><br clear="none">My view is that 35 Million in reserve means that if some crank out there <br clear="none">decides to sue ARIN, their lawyer is going to have 35 million reasons <br clear="none">why the case is unwinnable - it gives ARIN the ability to tell the <br clear="none">cranks to kiss-off.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Unfortunately, it's too low to allow ARIN to tell the major governments<br clear="none">to stuff it, that is why, in my opinion, it's too low of a reserve.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">><br clear="none">>> ARIN as it stands is "option 2" that you have laid out. Read ARIN's<br
clear="none">>> charter, it's on their website. If you think that ARIN is not living up<br clear="none">>> to it's charter, then a thoughtful post to this discussion list<br clear="none">>> as to why they aren't would be fantastic. If you think the charter<br clear="none">>> needs to be changed, then once more a thoughtful post to this list would<br clear="none">>> be great.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> But, I see no future in continuing this discussion on terms that ASSUME<br clear="none">>> that ARIN is something forced on us and divorced from us. It is not. If you<br clear="none">>> don't like something ARIN is doing - then take it up with the<br clear="none">>> rest of us - who created ARIN's policies.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> WE made ARIN and we can break it.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> If it were that
simple we'd all be in a happier place.<br clear="none">><br clear="none"><br clear="none">They wouldn't be paying us to keep things in order if it were that <br clear="none">simple, also.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">If enough of the IP consumers got together and decided to replace the <br clear="none">RIR system, it would happen, no question about it.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">That is precisely what happened to the domain name system. I wasn't in<br clear="none">favor of that move, either. But a bunch of idealists and "ivory tower<br clear="none">academics" who never actually worked at a job where someone was paying<br clear="none">them to do ANYTHING MORE THAN FLAP THEIR LIPS about domain names, all<br clear="none">got together and pulled the pants down on the rest of us - and we got a <br clear="none">so-called "competitive" domain name system.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">And we all saw the results of that. A big
fragging mess, where you have<br clear="none">spammers who are now able to buy domain names by the millions from<br clear="none">corrupt registries, and damn near ruin email.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Where are those ivory tower academics now? Hiding in their holes, <br clear="none">that's where. They don't have an answer to what the spammers are doing<br clear="none">to the domain name system nor have any of them apologized for all their<br clear="none">STUPIDITY when they were posting learned treatises about how much better<br clear="none">it was gonna be if we kicked ole Network Solutions out of the domain<br clear="none">name game and "opened" the system to "competition"<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Yah, sure, we can have as much competition in domain names as we have<br clear="none">in oil producers in the world. Sure, sure, competition is gonna help<br clear="none">EVERYTHING. RUBBISH.<br clear="none"><br
clear="none">This is why I don't have a lot of patience with criticism that does not<br clear="none">point to specific things. The domain name system was wrecked by people <br clear="none">with no specific criticism but with a lot of general criticism. I am <br clear="none">not going to sit still for the RIR system being taken down the same way.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The CloudRadium fraud posting - that was great. Very specific, <br clear="none">verifiable things posted there.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">But just saying ARIN needs to cut their budget, without pointing to <br clear="none">anything specific? No, Martin, I'm not going to give you a pass on <br clear="none">that. Your not a newbie, you can do the work to point to specific things.<div class="yqt9532587069" id="yqtfd10079"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Ted<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> Best,<br clear="none">><br clear="none">>
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