[arin-discuss] [arin-announce] Community Consultation: Future Direction for the ARIN Fee Schedule

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

So, then, spending $20 in gas to use a $2 coupon is welcomed?

Spending $100 on a car alternator that you have
to replace every 2 years because it's made out of inferior parts is
welcomed over spending $200 on a car alternator that lasts the life
of the car?

Just trying to get a handle on this notion that arbitrary cuts of 
expenses are a good thing.

Ted


On 10/14/2014 4:13 PM, Gary Campbell wrote:
> Martin,
> Why 40%? Just wondered how you came up with that percentage. At the same
> time I do agree that a cut in expense is always welcomed.
> Regards,
> Gary
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 6:03 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On 10/14/2014 1:09 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:
>  > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt<tedm at ipinc.net
> <mailto:tedm at ipinc.net>> wrote:
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> On 10/14/2014 6:46 AM, Cort Buffington wrote:
>  >>>
>  >>> Disclosure: I am with a smallish statewide R&E network, an LRSA
>  >>> holder for 2 x /16s, and "normal" ISP holder of 1x /17 and
>  >>> 1x/32(IPv6). Also, I have never held any illusion that the special
>  >>> treatment of the LRSA holders would be permanent or even long-term. I
>  >>> always expected it to be a way to placate us for a few years while we
>  >>> adjusted to the changing world.
>  >>>
>  >>> Discussion on the Fee Schedules: Underneath the equations and
>  >>> calculations is a question about what ARIN is, or will be. I see two
>  >>> competing paradigms: * ARIN sells the right to use IP addresses and
>  >>> charges fees based on the number of IPs used. * ARIN provides
>  >>> registration and records maintenance services and charges based on
>  >>> the cost to provide those services.
>  >>>
>  >>> One of these describes an organization that is selling something of
>  >>> value, and revenue is generated based on volume of sales, with
>  >>> perhaps discounts for large buys (or penalties for small ones). The
>  >>> other describes a (probably non-profit) organization that is offering
>  >>> a service and charges fees based on the fair recovery of expenses in
>  >>> providing those services.
>  >>>
>  >>> I believe ARIN should first answer the question of what it is,
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> ARIN cannot do that. We, the ARIN community, can do that. ARIN exists
>  >> because we wanted it to exist, because originally IP blocks were
>  >> assigned off a spiral notebook
>  >>
>  >> I'm getting tired of this business which a lot of people seem to be
>  >> engaging in of trying to disassociate ARIN as an entity from the
>  >> community of RIR's ISPs, Telcos, and whoever else that has a stake
>  >> in IP address management.
>  >>
>  >
>  > More than a few people believe this is may be necessary.
>  >
>  >
>  >> Martin I can excuse, he's got a chip on his shoulder. You, not so
>  >> much. You have no axe to grind, please do not adopt Martin's divisive
>  >> language of us, we, them, etc.
>  >>
>  >
>  > Gee, thanks Ted. My experience, and that of many large networks, has
>  > not been as positive as yours may be. I'm pleased to be able to
>  > provide the necessary feedback to insure that ARIN does act in the
>  > _whole_ communities interest and am generally pleased with the
>  > results. Mostly.
>  >
>
> Martin, you proposed nearly a 1/2 reduction in budget but
> you did not say a single thing that ARIN is doing that they shouldn't be
> spending money on - or that they are spending too much money on.
>
> If your going to throw the rocks, aim for a window.
>
>  > I believe the fee structure discussion should come after a more
>  > vigorous debate about expenses and then fee recovery used to fund
>  > them. ARIN has almost $35M in reserves with a two year expense
>  > reserve.
>  >
>  > What do the other RIRs do with their reserves and how large are they?
>  >
>
> ARIN is a target, there are many large companies and a number
> of governments who I believe probably would be just as happy to see
> them and the RIR system go away. The People's Republic of China, for
> example, really views the entire Internet as a gigantic sewer talking
> about all kinds of things that they don't want their people to learn
> about - that's why they spend millions on maintaining a firewall.
>
> I believe that PRC would be quite pleased to see the RIR system
> destroyed and replaced by an open-season system where those who have
> money get the access.
>
> And I think that a lot of other governments would like the same thing.
>
> You talk about me having a positive experience with ARIN? Well let's
> just say that I have HOPE that any interaction with ARIN is going to be
> positive - but there would be absolutely no hope at all if it was a
> for-profit company running things, where you had to pay through the
> nose to play.
>
> I am not going to say every single operation of ARIN's is an excellent
> spend of money. I'm still mad they didn't greenlight the Team ARIN
> movie back in '08. ;-) But seriously, I am glad they have SOME
> reserve. (and the Team ARIN comic was great, even if you have to dig
> it out of the Wayback machine nowadays)
>
> My view is that 35 Million in reserve means that if some crank out there
> decides to sue ARIN, their lawyer is going to have 35 million reasons
> why the case is unwinnable - it gives ARIN the ability to tell the
> cranks to kiss-off.
>
> Unfortunately, it's too low to allow ARIN to tell the major governments
> to stuff it, that is why, in my opinion, it's too low of a reserve.
>
>  >
>  >> ARIN as it stands is "option 2" that you have laid out. Read ARIN's
>  >> charter, it's on their website. If you think that ARIN is not living up
>  >> to it's charter, then a thoughtful post to this discussion list
>  >> as to why they aren't would be fantastic. If you think the charter
>  >> needs to be changed, then once more a thoughtful post to this list would
>  >> be great.
>  >>
>  >> But, I see no future in continuing this discussion on terms that ASSUME
>  >> that ARIN is something forced on us and divorced from us. It is not.
> If you
>  >> don't like something ARIN is doing - then take it up with the
>  >> rest of us - who created ARIN's policies.
>  >>
>  >> WE made ARIN and we can break it.
>  >
>  >
>  > If it were that simple we'd all be in a happier place.
>  >
>
> They wouldn't be paying us to keep things in order if it were that
> simple, also.
>
> If enough of the IP consumers got together and decided to replace the
> RIR system, it would happen, no question about it.
>
> That is precisely what happened to the domain name system. I wasn't in
> favor of that move, either. But a bunch of idealists and "ivory tower
> academics" who never actually worked at a job where someone was paying
> them to do ANYTHING MORE THAN FLAP THEIR LIPS about domain names, all
> got together and pulled the pants down on the rest of us - and we got a
> so-called "competitive" domain name system.
>
> And we all saw the results of that. A big fragging mess, where you have
> spammers who are now able to buy domain names by the millions from
> corrupt registries, and damn near ruin email.
>
> Where are those ivory tower academics now? Hiding in their holes,
> that's where. They don't have an answer to what the spammers are doing
> to the domain name system nor have any of them apologized for all their
> STUPIDITY when they were posting learned treatises about how much better
> it was gonna be if we kicked ole Network Solutions out of the domain
> name game and "opened" the system to "competition"
>
> Yah, sure, we can have as much competition in domain names as we have
> in oil producers in the world. Sure, sure, competition is gonna help
> EVERYTHING. RUBBISH.
>
> This is why I don't have a lot of patience with criticism that does not
> point to specific things. The domain name system was wrecked by people
> with no specific criticism but with a lot of general criticism. I am
> not going to sit still for the RIR system being taken down the same way.
>
> The CloudRadium fraud posting - that was great. Very specific,
> verifiable things posted there.
>
> But just saying ARIN needs to cut their budget, without pointing to
> anything specific? No, Martin, I'm not going to give you a pass on
> that. Your not a newbie, you can do the work to point to specific things.
>
>
> Ted
>
>  > Best,
>  >
>  > -M<
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