[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Kelvin Williams
kwilliams at altuscgi.com
Tue Jul 21 23:21:55 EDT 2009
Its not that we don't care. Its that we have end users who don't.
Maybe we should use ARINs resources to educate the masses, similar to the Digital TV campaign.
If there isn't mass education, then we ISPs are just picking on people with old computers.
Kelvin Williams
Altus Communications Group, Inc.
Office Direct: 678.369.5968
Office Main: 678.369.5970
Fax: 866.895.8557
Mobile: 678.852.4173
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Valenti <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:18:35
To: Joel Jaeggli<joelja at bogus.com>
Cc: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>; John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>; <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Why should I spend the time trying to set up IPV6 servers when the ISPs
don't care?
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Joel Jaeggli <joelja at bogus.com> wrote:
> You need to find a new sales rep.
>
> as2828 will sell you v6 transit. they have v6 customers, prefixs in the
> routing table, etc.
>
> joel
>
> Kelvin Williams wrote:
> > I have several uplinks to XO. And they have stated they have no IPv6
> > plans to us.
> >
> > Kelvin Williams
> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
> > Fax: 866.895.8557
> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From*: John Brown
> > *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:43:46 -0600
> > *To*: Tony Valenti<tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
> > *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> >
> > Who is that “upstream”???
> >
> > Change providers ??
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/21/09 8:42 PM, "Tony Valenti" <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.
> > I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly
> > assumes that we have something to do with making IPV6 a reality and
> > managing IPV4 address space.
> >
> > Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and
> > asked them when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses. After being
> > escalated all the way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that
> > they have no plans to implement IPV6 which means that if I put any
> > content on an IPV6 address, I can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US
> > won't have access to it.
> >
> > So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't
> > care, and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address
> > space because the internet is officially out, what will you do? As
> > a webhosting company, we have no choice but to pay whatever the
> > black market price for IPs is or go out of business/quit accepting
> > customers.
> >
> > If I sound unhappy, it is because I am. ARIN continually emphasizes
> > the problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything
> > to fix the problem - they just make the current process harder.
> > ARIN is a doomsday prophet powerless to change the fate that we all
> > will endure.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I’ll ask the age old question again.
> >
> > What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?
> > If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different
> > then, what gives ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.
> >
> > Its contracts law.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point
> > where the big
> > guys are holding available IP address space over our heads
> > for a fee.
> > Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with
> > every small ISP
> > that comes along asking for address space.
> >
> > We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP
> > space and also
> > requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both
> > attempts
> > because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an
> > IPv6 block
> > and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this
> > time, the
> > only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us
> > running pure
> > IPv6 for a long time to come.
> >
> > ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,
> > mostly unused
> > blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good
> > start, or
> > maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from
> > each of these
> > companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders
> > of address
> > space on justification, why can't they do the same on these
> > large
> > blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more
> > of their
> > block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then
> > they should
> > break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chris Gotstein
> > Sr Network Engineer
> > UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
> > 500 N Stephenson Ave
> > Iron Mountain, MI 49801
> > Phone: 906-774-4847
> > Fax: 906-774-0335
> > chris at uplogon.com
> >
> > Kelvin Williams wrote:
> > > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
> > >
> > > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of
> > IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB
> > DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
> > >
> > > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers
> > running Linux or current versions of Windows that support
> > IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were running IPv6.
> > >
> > > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT
> > can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,
> > etc) in use today.
> > >
> > > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are
> > protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and
> > paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8
> > holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks
> > they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
> > >
> > > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4
> > address because they can go for that.
> > >
> > > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should
> > be a steering group developed to address the real issues.
> > Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW freeing
> > up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In my
> > opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
> > networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can
> > transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users
> > still running Windows 98.
> > >
> > > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to
> > the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues
> > without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to
> > create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
> > >
> > > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the
> > local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made
> > sense to us)
> > >
> > >
> > > Kw
> > >
> > >
> > > Kelvin Williams
> > > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> > > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> > > Office Main: 678.369.5970
> > > Fax: 866.895.8557
> > > Mobile: 678.852.4173
> > >
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
> > >
> > > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
> > > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
> > > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> > accountability.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely
> > liking to have
> > > some), then a transfer market will
> > > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will
> > suddenly
> > > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple
> > continue to sit
> > > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than
> > charging them
> > > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either
> > way,
> > > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money
> > they lose.
> > >
> > > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market
> > never forms
> > > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case
> > nobody will
> > > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
> > >
> > > Either way, it works the same.
> > >
> > > Ted
> > >
> > > John Brown wrote:
> > >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they
> > have to assess a
> > >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
> > >>
> > >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there
> > was no fee as
> > >> part of the "contract".
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
> > >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> > >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> > accountability.
> > >>>
> > >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a
> NAT
> > >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak
> about,
> > >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type
> of
> > >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in
> them
> > >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
> > >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that
> uses
> > >>> a NAT type firewall
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> Steve Wagner
> > >>> Vice President of Operations
> > >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
> > >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
> > >>> Boise, ID 83705
> > >>> Office: 208.229.6104
> > >>> Main: 208.229.6100
> > >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
> > >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
> > >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
> > >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
> > <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
> > >>>
> > >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
> > >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
> > >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is
> > >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
> > >>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you
> are
> > >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying,
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> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> > >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John
> > Brown
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
> > >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> > >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> > accountability.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of
> managing
> > >>> the actual
> > >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space
> > allocated or
> > >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers
> > don't exist any
> > >>> more.
> > >>>
> > >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
> > >>> higher than the
> > >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't
> > happen. I could
> > >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a
> > public spot
> > >>> light on those providers. :|
> > >>>
> > >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs
> of
> > >>> space should
> > >>> return the space they aren't using.
> > >>>
> > >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
> > >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
> > >>>
> > >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
> > addresses ??
> > >>>
> > >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get
> space, I
> > >>> don't know.
> > >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a
> > broad brush.
> > >>>
> > >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people
> doing
> > >>> good work
> > >>> under the guidelines they have.
> > >>>
> > >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
> > >>> request, I'm sure
> > >>> it can be resolved.
> > >>>
> > >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
> > privately work
> > >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
> > >>> muster and what
> > >>> may need to be done to help it float.
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> > >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
> Mike
> > Horwath
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
> > >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
> > >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> > accountability.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
> > >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on
> for
> > >>>> way too long.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
> > >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later,
> > same
> > >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to
> > share the pool.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the
> mid/late-1990s
> > >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government
> be
> > >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
> > >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure
> you
> > >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who
> have
> > >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their
> > >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are
> the
> > >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by
> about 20
> > >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
> > >>>> stock offering.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
> > companies: PROFIT
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing
> field
> > >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It
> > never has
> > >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
> > drechsau at iphouse.net
> > >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by
> > whatever it is
> > >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
> > >>>>_______________________________________________
> > >>>> ARIN-Discuss
> > >>>> You are receiving this message because you are
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> ).
> > >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> > >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> > >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any
> issues.
> > >>>>
> > >>>_______________________________________________
> > >>> ARIN-Discuss
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> > >>>
> > >>_______________________________________________
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