<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> </HEAD>Its not that we don't care. Its that we have end users who don't. <br/><br/>Maybe we should use ARINs resources to educate the masses, similar to the Digital TV campaign. <br/><br/>If there isn't mass education, then we ISPs are just picking on people with old computers. <p>Kelvin Williams<br/>Altus Communications Group, Inc.<br/>Office Direct: 678.369.5968<br/>Office Main: 678.369.5970<br/>Fax: 866.895.8557<br/>Mobile: 678.852.4173<br/><br/>Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<br/><br/></p><p><hr size=2 width=100% align=center tabindex=-1><b>From</b>: Tony Valenti <tony.valenti@powerdnn.com><br><b>Date</b>: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:18:35 -0500<br><b>To</b>: Joel Jaeggli<joelja@bogus.com><br><b>Subject</b>: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.<br></font></p>Why should I spend the time trying to set up IPV6 servers when the ISPs don't care?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Joel Jaeggli <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joelja@bogus.com">joelja@bogus.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">You need to find a new sales rep.<br><br> as2828 will sell you v6 transit. they have v6 customers, prefixs in the<br> routing table, etc.<br><font color="#888888"><br> joel<br></font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br> Kelvin Williams wrote:<br> > I have several uplinks to XO. And they have stated they have no IPv6<br> > plans to us.<br> ><br> > Kelvin Williams<br> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.<br> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968<br> > Office Main: 678.369.5970<br> > Fax: 866.895.8557<br> > Mobile: 678.852.4173<br> ><br> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<br> ><br> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br> > *From*: John Brown<br> > *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:43:46 -0600<br> > *To*: Tony Valenti<<a href="mailto:tony.valenti@powerdnn.com">tony.valenti@powerdnn.com</a>><br> > *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.<br> ><br> > Who is that “upstream”???<br> ><br> > Change providers ??<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > On 7/21/09 8:42 PM, "Tony Valenti" <<a href="mailto:tony.valenti@powerdnn.com">tony.valenti@powerdnn.com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.<br> > I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly<br> > assumes that we have something to do with making IPV6 a reality and<br> > managing IPV4 address space.<br> ><br> > Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and<br> > asked them when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses. After being<br> > escalated all the way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that<br> > they have no plans to implement IPV6 which means that if I put any<br> > content on an IPV6 address, I can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US<br> > won't have access to it.<br> ><br> > So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't<br> > care, and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address<br> > space because the internet is officially out, what will you do? As<br> > a webhosting company, we have no choice but to pay whatever the<br> > black market price for IPs is or go out of business/quit accepting<br> > customers.<br> ><br> > If I sound unhappy, it is because I am. ARIN continually emphasizes<br> > the problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything<br> > to fix the problem - they just make the current process harder.<br> > ARIN is a doomsday prophet powerless to change the fate that we all<br> > will endure.<br> ><br> ><br> > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>><br> > wrote:<br> ><br> > I’ll ask the age old question again.<br> ><br> > What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?<br> > If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different<br> > then, what gives ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.<br> ><br> > Its contracts law.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <<a href="mailto:chris@uplogon.com">chris@uplogon.com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point<br> > where the big<br> > guys are holding available IP address space over our heads<br> > for a fee.<br> > Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with<br> > every small ISP<br> > that comes along asking for address space.<br> ><br> > We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP<br> > space and also<br> > requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both<br> > attempts<br> > because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an<br> > IPv6 block<br> > and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this<br> > time, the<br> > only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us<br> > running pure<br> > IPv6 for a long time to come.<br> ><br> > ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,<br> > mostly unused<br> > blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good<br> > start, or<br> > maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from<br> > each of these<br> > companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders<br> > of address<br> > space on justification, why can't they do the same on these<br> > large<br> > blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more<br> > of their<br> > block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then<br> > they should<br> > break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.<br> ><br> ><br> > --<br> > Chris Gotstein<br> > Sr Network Engineer<br> > UP Logon/Computer Connection UP<br> > 500 N Stephenson Ave<br> > Iron Mountain, MI 49801<br> > Phone: 906-774-4847<br> > Fax: 906-774-0335<br> > <a href="mailto:chris@uplogon.com">chris@uplogon.com</a><br> ><br> > Kelvin Williams wrote:<br> > > Whoa, whoa, whoa.<br> > ><br> > > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of<br> > IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB<br> > DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.<br> > ><br> > > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers<br> > running Linux or current versions of Windows that support<br> > IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were running IPv6.<br> > ><br> > > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT<br> > can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,<br> > etc) in use today.<br> > ><br> > > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are<br> > protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and<br> > paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8<br> > holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks<br> > they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.<br> > ><br> > > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4<br> > address because they can go for that.<br> > ><br> > > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should<br> > be a steering group developed to address the real issues.<br> > Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW freeing<br> > up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In my<br> > opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their<br> > networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can<br> > transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users<br> > still running Windows 98.<br> > ><br> > > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to<br> > the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues<br> > without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to<br> > create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.<br> > ><br> > > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the<br> > local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made<br> > sense to us)<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > Kw<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > Kelvin Williams<br> > > Altus Communications Group, Inc.<br> > > Office Direct: 678.369.5968<br> > > Office Main: 678.369.5970<br> > > Fax: 866.895.8557<br> > > Mobile: 678.852.4173<br> > ><br> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > > -----Original Message-----<br> > > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <<a href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net">tedm@ipinc.net</a>><br> > ><br> > > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01<br> > > To: John Brown<<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>><br> > > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<<a href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a>><br> > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<br> > accountability.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely<br> > liking to have<br> > > some), then a transfer market will<br> > > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will<br> > suddenly<br> > > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple<br> > continue to sit<br> > > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than<br> > charging them<br> > > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either<br> > way,<br> > > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money<br> > they lose.<br> > ><br> > > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market<br> > never forms<br> > > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case<br> > nobody will<br> > > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.<br> > ><br> > > Either way, it works the same.<br> > ><br> > > Ted<br> > ><br> > > John Brown wrote:<br> > >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they<br> > have to assess a<br> > >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??<br> > >><br> > >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there<br> > was no fee as<br> > >> part of the "contract".<br> > >><br> > >><br> > >><br> > >>> -----Original Message-----<br> > >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:<a href="mailto:stwagner@syringanetworks.net">stwagner@syringanetworks.net</a>]<br> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM<br> > >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon<br> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<br> > >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<br> > accountability.<br> > >>><br> > >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT<br> > >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,<br> > >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of<br> > >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them<br> > >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This<br> > >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses<br> > >>> a NAT type firewall<br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > >>> Regards,<br> > >>> Steve Wagner<br> > >>> Vice President of Operations<br> > >>> Syringa Networks, LLC<br> > >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100<br> > >>> Boise, ID 83705<br> > >>> Office: 208.229.6104<br> > >>> Main: 208.229.6100<br> > >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214<br> > >>> Fax: 208.229.6110<br> > >>> Email: <a href="mailto:Stwagner@syringanetworks.net">Stwagner@syringanetworks.net</a><br> > >>> Web: <a href="http://www.syringanetworks.net" target="_blank">www.syringanetworks.net</a><br> > <<a href="http://www.syringanetworks.net" target="_blank">http://www.syringanetworks.net</a>><br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"<br> > >>><br> > >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice<br> > >>> The information in this message is intended for the named<br> > >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is<br> > >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from<br> > >>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are<br> > >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,<br> > >>> or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of<br> > >>> this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received<br> > >>> this e-mail in error, do not print it or disseminate it or<br> > >>> its contents. In such event, please notify the sender by<br> > >>> return e-mail and delete the e-mail file immediately<br> > >>> thereafter. Thank you.<br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > >>> -----Original Message-----<br> > >>> From: <a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a><br> > >>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of John<br> > Brown<br> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM<br> > >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon<br> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<br> > >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<br> > accountability.<br> > >>><br> > >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing<br> > >>> the actual<br> > >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space<br> > allocated or<br> > >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers<br> > don't exist any<br> > >>> more.<br> > >>><br> > >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is<br> > >>> higher than the<br> > >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't<br> > happen. I could<br> > >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a<br> > public spot<br> > >>> light on those providers. :|<br> > >>><br> > >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of<br> > >>> space should<br> > >>> return the space they aren't using.<br> > >>><br> > >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???<br> > >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??<br> > >>><br> > >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP<br> > addresses ??<br> > >>><br> > >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I<br> > >>> don't know.<br> > >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a<br> > broad brush.<br> > >>><br> > >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing<br> > >>> good work<br> > >>> under the guidelines they have.<br> > >>><br> > >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation<br> > >>> request, I'm sure<br> > >>> it can be resolved.<br> > >>><br> > >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to<br> > privately work<br> > >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes<br> > >>> muster and what<br> > >>> may need to be done to help it float.<br> > >>><br> > >>>> -----Original Message-----<br> > >>>> From: <a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a><br> > >>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of Mike<br> > Horwath<br> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM<br> > >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon<br> > >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<br> > >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<br> > accountability.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> Hi.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of<br> > >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for<br> > >>>> way too long.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I<br> > >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later,<br> > same<br> > >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to<br> > share the pool.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s<br> > >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be<br> > >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of<br> > >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you<br> > >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have<br> > >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their<br> > >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the<br> > >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20<br> > >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'<br> > >>>> stock offering.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding<br> > companies: PROFIT<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing field<br> > >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It<br> > never has<br> > >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>> --<br> > >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!<br> > <a href="mailto:drechsau@iphouse.net">drechsau@iphouse.net</a><br> > >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by<br> > whatever it is<br> > >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune<br> > >>>>_______________________________________________<br> > >>>> ARIN-Discuss<br> > >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br> > >>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br> > >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br> > >>>> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br> > >>>> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br> > >>>><br> > >>>_______________________________________________<br> > >>> ARIN-Discuss<br> > >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br> > >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br> > >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br> > >>> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br> > >>> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br> > >>><br> > >>_______________________________________________<br> > >> ARIN-Discuss<br> > >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br> > >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br> > >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br> > >> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br> > >> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br> > ><br> > >_______________________________________________<br> > > ARIN-Discuss<br> > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br> > > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br> > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br> > > <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br> > > Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br> > >_______________________________________________<br> > > ARIN-Discuss<br> > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br> > > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br> > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br> > > <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br> > > Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br> ><br> > _______________________________________________<br> > ARIN-Discuss<br> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br> > <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br> > Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > _______________________________________________<br> > ARIN-Discuss<br> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br> > <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br> > Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br></div></div>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><div><div></div><div class="h5">><br> >_______________________________________________<br> > ARIN-Discuss<br> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br> > <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br> > Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br> </html>