[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Kelvin Williams
kwilliams at altuscgi.com
Tue Jul 21 22:43:50 EDT 2009
Net-Neutrality is something I fully support. The previous example was just saying, if ARIN can't help us little guys, we can band together and help ourselves.
Kelvin Williams
Altus Communications Group, Inc.
Office Direct: 678.369.5968
Office Main: 678.369.5970
Fax: 866.895.8557
Mobile: 678.852.4173
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
-----Original Message-----
From: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:39:24
To: <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>; Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com>
Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Hang on, I need to scream NET-NEUTRALITY.
Ah, but market forces will keep you from adding those ACL¹s. Your customers
will find another provider that is ACL free and then you will be revenue
free. :)
On 7/21/09 8:30 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com> wrote:
> ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they (Apple, et al)
> don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they don't have a legal right
> when we add ACLs blocking their traffic from traversing our networks. ;)Kw
>
> Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:
> 678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile: 678.852.4173Sent
> from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
>
> From: John Brown
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02 -0600
> To: Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com>; <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> I¹ll ask the age old question again.
>
> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything? If Apple got
> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives ARIN the
> ability to enforce rules today.
>
> Its contracts law.
>
>
>
>
> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>
>> I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the big
>> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small ISP
>> that comes along asking for address space.
>>
>> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and also
>> requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both attempts
>> because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an IPv6 block
>> and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this time, the
>> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>>
>> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly unused
>> blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good start, or
>> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of these
>> companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of address
>> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>> blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>> block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then they should
>> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Gotstein
>> Sr Network Engineer
>> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>> 500 N Stephenson Ave
>> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>> Phone: 906-774-4847
>> Fax: 906-774-0335
>> chris at uplogon.com
>>
>> Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>> >
>>> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
>>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>>> >
>>> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running Linux
>>> or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority of web
>>> destinations were running IPv6.
>>> >
>>> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
>>> problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>>> >
>>> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
>>> blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now be
>>> at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the
>>> blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>> >
>>> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address
>>> because they can go for that.
>>> >
>>> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a steering
>>> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to
>>> implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay.
>>> In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their networks
>>> aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition versus the
>>> ISPs of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>>> >
>>> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
>>> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
>>> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of large
>>> bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>>> >
>>> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
>>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Kw
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Kelvin Williams
>>> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>> > Fax: 866.895.8557
>>> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>>> >
>>> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>> > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
>>> > some), then a transfer market will
>>> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>>> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue to sit
>>> > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than charging them
>>> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either way,
>>> > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money they lose.
>>> >
>>> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>>> > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case nobody will
>>> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>> >
>>> > Either way, it works the same.
>>> >
>>> > Ted
>>> >
>>> > John Brown wrote:
>>>> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to assess a
>>>> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>> >>
>>>> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no fee as
>>>> >> part of the "contract".
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>>>> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>>>> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>>>> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>>>> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>>>> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>>>> >>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Regards,
>>>>> >>> Steve Wagner
>>>>> >>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>> >>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>> >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>> >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>> >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>>>> >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>>>>> >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
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>>>>> >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
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>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>> >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Brown
>>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>>>> >>> the actual
>>>>> >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>>>>> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist any
>>>>> >>> more.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>>>> >>> higher than the
>>>>> >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't happen. I could
>>>>> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public spot
>>>>> >>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>>>> >>> space should
>>>>> >>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>>>> >>> don't know.
>>>>> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>>>> >>> good work
>>>>> >>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>> >>> request, I'm sure
>>>>> >>> it can be resolved.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately work
>>>>> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>> >>> muster and what
>>>>> >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>> >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>>>>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Hi.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>>>> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>>>> >>>> way too long.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>>>> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later, same
>>>>>> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the pool.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>>>> >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>> >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>>>> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>>>> >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their
>>>>>> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the
>>>>>> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>>>> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>>>> >>>> stock offering.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:
>>>>>> PROFIT
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing field
>>>>>> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It never has
>>>>>> >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>>> >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
>>>>>> drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>>>> >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>>>>>> >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>> >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>> >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>> >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>_______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>>> >>>
>>>> >>_______________________________________________
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>>> >
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>>
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