[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

John Brown john at citylinkfiber.com
Tue Jul 21 22:39:24 EDT 2009


Hang on, I need to scream NET-NEUTRALITY.

Ah, but market forces will keep you from adding those ACL¹s.  Your customers
will find another provider that is ACL free and then you will be revenue
free. :)


On 7/21/09 8:30 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com> wrote:

> ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they (Apple, et al)
> don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they don't have a legal right
> when we add ACLs blocking their traffic from traversing our networks. ;)Kw
> 
> Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:
> 678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile: 678.852.4173Sent
> from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> 
> 
> From:  John Brown
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02 -0600
> To: Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com>; <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> I¹ll ask the age old question again.
> 
>  What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?  If Apple got
> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives ARIN the
> ability to  enforce rules today.
> 
>  Its contracts law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
> 
>> I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the big
>>  guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>>  Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small ISP
>>  that comes along asking for address space.
>> 
>>  We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and also
>>  requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both attempts
>>  because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have an IPv6 block
>>  and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at this time, the
>>  only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>>  IPv6 for a long time to come.
>> 
>>  ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly unused
>>  blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a good start, or
>>  maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of these
>>  companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of address
>>  space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>>  blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>>  block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then they should
>>  break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>> 
>> 
>>  --
>>  Chris Gotstein
>>  Sr Network Engineer
>>  UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>>  500 N Stephenson Ave
>>  Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>>  Phone: 906-774-4847
>>  Fax: 906-774-0335
>>  chris at uplogon.com
>> 
>>  Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>>  > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>>  >
>>>  > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
>>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>>>  >
>>>  > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running Linux
>>> or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority of web
>>> destinations were running IPv6.
>>>  >
>>>  > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
>>> problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>>>  >
>>>  > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
>>> blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now be
>>> at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the
>>> blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>>  >
>>>  > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address
>>> because they can go for that.
>>>  >
>>>  > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a steering
>>> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to
>>> implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay.
>>> In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their networks
>>> aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition versus the
>>> ISPs of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>>>  >
>>>  > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
>>> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
>>> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of large
>>> bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>>>  >
>>>  > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
>>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  > Kw
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  > Kelvin Williams
>>>  > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>>  > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>>  > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>>  > Fax: 866.895.8557
>>>  > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>>  >
>>>  > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  > -----Original Message-----
>>>  > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>>>  >
>>>  > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>>  > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>>  > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>>  > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
>>>  > some), then a transfer market will
>>>  > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>>>  > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue to sit
>>>  > on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than charging them
>>>  > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.  Either way,
>>>  > they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the money they lose.
>>>  >
>>>  > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>>>  > and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which case nobody will
>>>  > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>>  >
>>>  > Either way, it works the same.
>>>  >
>>>  > Ted
>>>  >
>>>  > John Brown wrote:
>>>>  >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to assess a
>>>>  >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no fee as
>>>>  >> part of the "contract".
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >> 
>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>  >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>>>>  >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>>  >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>  >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>  >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>>>>  >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>>>>  >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>>>>  >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>>>>  >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>>>>  >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>>>>  >>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> Regards,
>>>>>  >>> Steve Wagner
>>>>>  >>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>>  >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>>  >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>>  >>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>>  >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>>  >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>>  >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>>  >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>>  >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>>>>  >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>>>>>  >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
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>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>  >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>  >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Brown
>>>>>  >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>>  >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>  >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>  >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>>>>  >>> the actual
>>>>>  >>> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>>>>>  >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist any
>>>>>  >>> more.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>>>>  >>> higher than the
>>>>>  >>> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't happen.  I could
>>>>>  >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public spot
>>>>>  >>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>>>>  >>> space should
>>>>>  >>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>>  >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>>>>  >>> don't know.
>>>>>  >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>>>>  >>> good work
>>>>>  >>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>>  >>> request, I'm sure
>>>>>  >>> it can be resolved.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately work
>>>>>  >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>>  >>> muster and what
>>>>>  >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>  >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>  >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>  >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>>>>>>  >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>>  >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>  >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>  >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> Hi.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>>>>  >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>>>>  >>>> way too long.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>>>>  >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years later, same
>>>>>>  >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the pool.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>>>>  >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>>  >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>>  >>>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>>>>  >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>>>>  >>>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
>>>>>>  >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
>>>>>>  >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>>>>  >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>>>>  >>>> stock offering.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:
>>>>>> PROFIT
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing field
>>>>>>  >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It never has
>>>>>>  >>>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>  >>>> --
>>>>>>  >>>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!
>>>>>> drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>>>>  >>>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>>>>>>  >>>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>>  >>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>  >>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>>  >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>>  >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>>>  >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>>  >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>  >>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>>>  >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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>>>>>  >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>  >>_______________________________________________
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>>>  >
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>> 
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> 
> 


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