ARIN Proposal

[Karl Denninger]

> >This is really orthogonal to ARIN, except that ARIN could be used in this
> >way, and if it is, then the MEMBERS can end up being assaulted in this
> >fashion.  It is in EVERYONE'S best interest to make sure that doesn't happen
> >by having ARIN be completely above question when it comes to policy matters,
> >board constitution, etc.
>
> This is starting to sound more and more like a conspiracy theory.

Nope.  Its a concern that could turn into reality.  I don't have a problem
with ARIN as long as it doesn't, and that it is truly a neutral organization
working to keep the 'net running smoothly AND on a reasonably-level playing
field..

> >Did you READ all of 2008?  Try this portion of RFC2008:
> >
> > [excerpt clipped for brevity]

> The key word there is ASSUMED. The only people that will get are the
> customer and the clueless ISP that made promises that they couldn't
> keep.

No.  The key word is PRACTICED.

Again, we're not talking about ISP<>direct customer links here.  We're
talking about, primarily, ISP/NSP relationships.  And in that context,
you could have a *MAJOR* anti-trust and racketeering problem.

> You seem to be implying that the misguided promises of clueless ISPs
> should be honored by the Internet community (to the detriment of the
> Internet community). Perhaps I've read your statements wrong, so
> please clarify if that is not the case.

You have.

I'm talking about NSP/ISP things here.  Organizations which have or can
justify /19s or better.

Not the end-user attachmnet with a /24.

The point is that ANY multi-homed ISP *MUST HAVE* PI space.  Period.
End of discussion.  It *HAS* to be that way to work *AT ALL*.

You know this.  I know this.  The rest of the ISP community that has ANY
clue knows this.  For this reason pretending that it isn't true is the
biggest load of malarky that I've seen here -- by and large the people
on this list KNOW that I'm right, posturing aside.  Hell, one of them was
trying to make the argument posting from a PI /16 in historical Class "B"
space!

Give me a break.

We run default-free.  We MUST have PI space.  It is not an option, it is not
negotiable, and it is not something we can bargain over.  If we buy service
from someone any space they give us at any rational size (ie: /19 or bigger)
is *PRESUMED* to be portable, because *IT HAS TO BE* in order for the space
to work for its intended purpose -- that is, non-preferrential routing based
only on the "best" path as we can determine.

By the way, the whole "flap" about this is relatively recent.  Two years ago
nobody bitched if you took space with you when you changed ISPs.  That's a
FACT, which is witnessed by the fact that lots of national ISPs have
*ALLOWED CUSTOMERS TO COME TO THEIR NETWORKS WITH HOLE-PUNCHES IN OTHER
ISPS BLOCKS!*

If you want to raise hell about *historical* practice, start right there.
The problem isn't with people allowing others to *leave*, its with ISPs
*ACCEPTING* customers with hole-punch space and agreeing to announce it!

> >Heh, wait a second.  That was twice in three years that everyone went out,
> >unloaded and repurchased MILLIONS OF DOLLARS worth of Bay and CISCO hardware.
>
> Replacing Bay with Bay and Cisco with Cisco is not comparable to
> replacing with Brand X. I forgot to mention all of the money network
> operators have tied up in Bay and/or Cisco training.

Aha.  So now it comes down to "I like the software interface better", not
"does the box work better".  I am beginning to understand the dynamic here.

Never mind that the replacements that I'm looking at run about half the
price of the CISCO hardware with "comparable" capabilities, and blow their
doors off both in configuration flexibility AND performance.  Oh, you DO
need a brain to use them -- big whoopee deal.

Of course, at ~2.4M pps I'll demand a brain from my engineers anyway :-)

> >> There will be fees of some sort because the people that work for ARIN
> >> won't work for free and they need computers and ofice supplies, etc.
> >
> >Why do you assume I'm opposed to ARIN?  I've not made that statement
> >anywhere in this discussion.
>
> Not directly you haven't, but the general tone of your statements has
> led me to believe that you opposed ARIN.

Nonsense.

--
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