[arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals

Mon Apr 14 19:36:59 EDT 2025

Do we have any examples of individuals who've come forward and claim to
have been harmed by the current policy requirements? Or is this all
hypothetical?

-Scott

On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 2:48 PM Mohibul Mahmud <mhasib at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the engaging and thoughtful discussion. I'm Mohibul, a
> former ARIN Meeting Fellow, and I'd like to contribute to this important
> conversation.
>
>
>
> I echo the concerns raised about the potential barriers individuals face
> when seeking Internet number resources from ARIN. As Jordi's example of
> Spain highlights, the costs and bureaucratic hurdles associated with
> establishing a sole proprietorship can disproportionately affect
> individuals in some ARIN-region countries, creating a significant disparity
> compared to places like the U.S. and Canada.
>
>
>
> I also acknowledge Fernando's point about the operational challenges of
> individuals securing BGP-capable residential connections. However, I'm
> concerned that this might cause us to overlook the needs of enthusiasts and
> small-scale innovators who could greatly benefit from direct access to IPv6
> resources for experimentation, personal projects, and technical learning.
>
>
>
> While I understand John's explanation regarding the public nature of
> Internet resource management, I believe there may be room for a more
> flexible approach. Could ARIN explore a policy path that allows individuals
> to request limited resources (such as an IPv6 /48 or /56) under a
> simplified, non-commercial framework? This framework could include specific
> use-case declarations and operational constraints. For example, has ARIN
> considered alternative models, such as RIPE NCC's approach to individual
> memberships, and what lessons might be learned from those?
>
>
>
> This approach could address the discrimination concerns raised, promote
> broader participation and education within our community, and allow ARIN to
> gather data on this specific demand.
>
>
>
> I believe this is an opportunity to balance the need for responsible
> resource management with the goal of empowering a wider range of
> individuals to contribute to the Internet's future.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Mohibul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 4:04 AM <arin-ppml-request at arin.net> wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: distributing resources for individuals
>>       (jordi.palet at consulintel.es)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2025 10:03:59 +0200
>> From: "jordi.palet at consulintel.es" <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
>> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>> Message-ID: <DDA185F5-E986-4557-9C0F-4113220B8103 at consulintel.es>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi Fernando,
>>
>> I don?t have the dat, but I assume It is inexpensive in US and Canada,
>> even if you don?t do business.
>>
>> So for an individual, not willing to have any business, who wants to have
>> IPv6 multihoming for its home and run BPG (or have BGP running by a
>> provider that offer him two links, two diverse paths, etc.), is also so
>> inexpensive? Does it means presenting monthly or quarterly tax
>> declarations? Does it means paying any recurrent tax or social security (or
>> similar) fee?
>>
>> In Spain for example, unless I?m wrong, the different ways to become a
>> self-employed (or even a sole-proprietorship corporation), means I need to
>> present quarterly tax/VAT reports, yearly ones, pay monthly fees for social
>> security (250-300 euros minimum per month), etc., etc., So really not
>> inexpensive. And this is even if you don?t have actual business! If you
>> don?t present those declarations, you will be fined. I?m guessing (not a
>> conversation to have here, but in LACNIC), it may be similar in some LACNIC
>> serviced countries.
>>
>> Any my question now is if ARIN has ensured that this is the same
>> situation in other countries in the service region, because it any country
>> has not similar inexpensive and bureaucratic-less means of becoming a
>> sole-proprietorship, then it is a problem and as said, I will consider it a
>> discrimination.
>>
>> Moreover, law in any country can change, so having this requirement, it
>> means ARIN policies/membership is too dependent on law changes, which I
>> don?t think is a good and safe way.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>>
>> @jordipalet
>>
>>
>> > El 8 abr 2025, a las 20:06, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>> escribi?:
>> >
>> > Hi Jordi
>> >
>> > The eventual cost for it, even in the Latin America Region for
>> comparison, is negligible, since this model of doing business by yourself
>> is normally very simplified. Additionally whoever is in need of resources
>> for various usages may already have some type of operation with income or
>> gains that justify this minimal spending to request resources in this legal
>> model mentioned.
>> >
>> > Although I see a point in what you say, I don't think there is a
>> pressuring demand of individuals willing to do this and not being able due
>> that.
>> >
>> > Yes the point about individuals willing to have their own space
>> allocation is valid, but there are several operational challenges that
>> overcome any legal/bureaucratic ones in my view. Ex: getting a residential
>> broadband connection that establishes a BGP session with the user.
>> >
>> > Fernando
>> >
>> > On 08/04/2025 14:55, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>> >> Hi John,
>> >>
>> >> I fully understand your point, however, this is highly depending on
>> each country regulation, in the case of ARIN it may be simpler (I think
>> much less countries than for example in LACNIC or APNIC) and laws, or the
>> way you legalize ?the business? is highly dependent even on possible
>> changes, which may affect their relationship (even risk of cancelation of
>> relationship) with the RIR.
>> >>
>> >> Moreover, it means extra cost. Maybe that cost in US and Canada is
>> negligible, but this is subjective, and subjected to changes, subjected to
>> different countries, etc. I don?t think it is logic for a RIR to depend on
>> so many external factors.
>> >>
>> >> Also this is excluding an individual not willing to have a business,
>> but willing to have multihoming with IPv6, with requires IPv6 PI, in
>> his/her home. Why we want/need to exclude that? So in this case, he/she
>> will be actually forced achieve the sole proprietorship. As said, in US and
>> Canada may be si just a declaration, but not in many other countries. Is
>> not that enforcing to circumvent the rules? Is that making any sense if you
>> can actually do it legally? I don?t think so, is only adding bureaucracy
>> and cost, which again is different in different countries, so creates a
>> discrimination.
>> >>
>> >> We also need to understand that those individuals that decide to
>> directly to connect to Internet and as you said ?present them publicly",
>> will only be able to do so via actual operators that provide them links
>> with BGP, so that already ensures the operational coordination. In the end
>> is the same for any smaller ISP, the overall majority of them don?t get in
>> touch with those hundred thousand global operators, but only with their
>> directly connected carriers, and anyway, they are engaged in  public
>> activities.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Jordi
>> >>
>> >> @jordipalet
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 19:26, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> <mailto:
>> jcurran at arin.net> escribi?:
>> >>>
>> >>> Jordi ?
>> >>>
>> >>> I note that individuals are private entities, whereas those who
>> choose to participate in the Internet?s infrastructure are engaging in
>> activities that are fundamentally public in nature. That is, participation
>> carries the potential need for operational coordination with any of over
>> one hundred thousand infrastructure operators globally ? in effect, making
>> it a public activity.
>> >>>
>> >>> ARIN requires natural persons to present themselves publicly in order
>> to hold rights to number resources. While this can be accomplished through
>> the formation of a business, it is also readily achievable ? as Bill Herrin
>> noted ? in many countries via a declaration of sole proprietorship, sole
>> trader status, or similar constructs. This is not a circumvention of the
>> ?organizations only? principle, but rather an acknowledgment that the
>> resource holder understands they are engaging in inherently public
>> activity, even if not conducting business per se.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> /John
>> >>>
>> >>> John Curran
>> >>> President and CEO
>> >>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Apr 8, 2025, at 12:00?PM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML <
>> arin-ppml at arin.net> <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The problem/difference is that:
>> >>>> 1) Not all the countries in LAC will have the same legal situation
>> that US and Canada that seems make it very easy to bypass the
>> ?organizations only?.
>> >>>> 2) It many countries it may mean extra artificial cost.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Setting up ?artificial barriers? to avoid individuals to have
>> resources, is not only discriminatory, is also silly, because they can be
>> bypassed with small or no cost in some countries, but bigger cost in other
>> countries. No sense. Also that means we avoid the registries having a few
>> extra members (note that I don?t think it will be a lot, but we should
>> facilitate it, instead of try to avoid it).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The justification is a different problem, and this is handled by the
>> initial allocation/assignment policy, not part of this dicussion. Obviously
>> a small business with only a single site, will ask a /48 and if they need
>> more they will need to do a full justification (just an example).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>> Jordi
>> >>>>
>> >>>> @jordipalet
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 17:13, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com> escribi?:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Therefore it is the same in LACNIC which works pretty much similar
>> to what Bill described for some jurisdictions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> But more important then this bureaucracy is that whoever is
>> requesting the resources be able to justify the need for them, even for
>> IPv6-only which is not scarce. Base should be able to justify the usage on
>> some operation.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Fernando
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 08/04/2025 11:42, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>> >>>>>> Hi Bill,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Yes, is the same in the EU (at least in Spain), when you have a
>> self-employed, tax declaration is mixed.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The only issue is that even if you have no business, you need to
>> pay a monthly fee (social security, VAT declaration every 3 months, even if
>> no activity, etc.) for keeping up the status of self-employed. Not sure if
>> in US and Canada is the same.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Creating a corporation like the ?sloe proprietorship? that you
>> mention, even if the cost is very low, still means that you need to do
>> yearly declarations, etc. Again not sure if in US and Canada is the same.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So I feel that this way in ARIN (and LACNIC) is not good for
>> individuals, because it adds additional cost and burden that is
>> discriminatory. Specially because in other countries (Caribbean) it may be
>> not so easy, and this is the same in LACNIC that has more countries, which
>> may have much different regulations, etc.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The question here is *if* ARIN allowed (before) individuals to get
>> resources, why it changed? it seems to be a step backwards, and decreasing
>> competitiveness o
>> >>>>>> self-employee and in fact small-medium business.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Tks!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regards,
>> >>>>>> Jordi
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> @jordipalet
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 15:57, William Herrin <bill at herrin.us>
>> <mailto:bill at herrin.us> escribi?:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2025 at 2:01?AM jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML
>> >>>>>>> <arin-ppml at arin.net> <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> I?m trying to understand if is possible in ARIN  for both, a
>> natural person with
>> >>>>>>>> an economic activity (not sure if this is also call
>> self-employment in all the
>> >>>>>>>> ARIN service countries) and a natural person for its own
>> ?private? life, to obtain resources.
>> >>>>>>> Hi Jordi,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ARIN no longer contracts with natural persons, only businesses.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> However, in the U.S. and Canada (I'm not sure about the Caribbean)
>> >>>>>>> it's a trivial matter to establish a "sole proprietorship." Some
>> >>>>>>> states don't even require registration; you simply declare it. In
>> >>>>>>> others it requires filling out a form and paying a small fee. In
>> both
>> >>>>>>> cases, the individual's personal and business finances are mixed
>> >>>>>>> together; there are no separate taxes or accounting or anything
>> like
>> >>>>>>> that. The sole proprietorship is a business which can contract
>> with
>> >>>>>>> ARIN and acquire IP addresses.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Look up AS11875 for an example of how this works.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Regards,
>> >>>>>>> Bill Herrin
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> William Herrin
>> >>>>>>> bill at herrin.us <mailto:bill at herrin.us>
>> >>>>>>> https://bill.herrin.us/
>> >>>>>> **********************************************
>> >>>>>> IPv4 is over
>> >>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
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>> >>>>>> The IPv6 Company
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>> >>
>> >> **********************************************
>> >> IPv4 is over
>> >> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> >> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>> >> The IPv6 Company
>> >>
>> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged
>> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of
>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized
>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or
>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal
>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
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>> >>
>> >>
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>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com
>> The IPv6 Company
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