<div dir="ltr">Do we have any examples of individuals who've come forward and claim to have been harmed by the current policy requirements? Or is this all hypothetical?<div><br></div><div>-Scott</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 2:48 PM Mohibul Mahmud <<a href="mailto:mhasib@gmail.com">mhasib@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="direction:ltr">
<div style="direction:ltr;margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;width:9.5833in">
<div style="direction:ltr;margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;width:9.5833in">
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">Hello all,</font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"> </font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">Thank you for the
engaging and thoughtful discussion. I'm Mohibul, a former ARIN Meeting Fellow,
and I'd like to contribute to this important conversation.</font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"> </font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">I echo the concerns
raised about the potential barriers individuals face when seeking Internet
number resources from ARIN. As Jordi's example of Spain highlights, the costs
and bureaucratic hurdles associated with establishing a sole proprietorship can
disproportionately affect individuals in some ARIN-region countries, creating a
significant disparity compared to places like the U.S. and Canada.</font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"> </font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">I also acknowledge
Fernando's point about the operational challenges of individuals securing
BGP-capable residential connections. However, I'm concerned that this might
cause us to overlook the needs of enthusiasts and small-scale innovators who
could greatly benefit from direct access to IPv6 resources for experimentation,
personal projects, and technical learning.</font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"> </font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">While I understand
John's explanation regarding the public nature of Internet resource management,
I believe there may be room for a more flexible approach. Could ARIN explore a
policy path that allows individuals to request limited resources (such as an
IPv6 /48 or /56) under a simplified, non-commercial framework? This framework
could include specific use-case declarations and operational constraints. For
example, has ARIN considered alternative models, such as RIPE NCC's approach to
individual memberships, and what lessons might be learned from those?</font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"> </font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">This approach could
address the discrimination concerns raised, promote broader participation and
education within our community, and allow ARIN to gather data on this specific
demand.</font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"> </font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">I believe this is an
opportunity to balance the need for responsible resource management with the
goal of empowering a wider range of individuals to contribute to the Internet's
future.</font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"> </font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">Best regards,</font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"> </font></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4">Mohibul</font></p><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"><br></font></p><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"><br></font></p><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"><br></font></p><p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri"><font size="4"><br></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 4:04 AM <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-request@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-request@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: distributing resources for individuals<br>
(<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>)<br>
<br>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2025 10:03:59 +0200<br>
From: "<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>" <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:DDA185F5-E986-4557-9C0F-4113220B8103@consulintel.es" target="_blank">DDA185F5-E986-4557-9C0F-4113220B8103@consulintel.es</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Fernando,<br>
<br>
I don?t have the dat, but I assume It is inexpensive in US and Canada, even if you don?t do business.<br>
<br>
So for an individual, not willing to have any business, who wants to have IPv6 multihoming for its home and run BPG (or have BGP running by a provider that offer him two links, two diverse paths, etc.), is also so inexpensive? Does it means presenting monthly or quarterly tax declarations? Does it means paying any recurrent tax or social security (or similar) fee?<br>
<br>
In Spain for example, unless I?m wrong, the different ways to become a self-employed (or even a sole-proprietorship corporation), means I need to present quarterly tax/VAT reports, yearly ones, pay monthly fees for social security (250-300 euros minimum per month), etc., etc., So really not inexpensive. And this is even if you don?t have actual business! If you don?t present those declarations, you will be fined. I?m guessing (not a conversation to have here, but in LACNIC), it may be similar in some LACNIC serviced countries.<br>
<br>
Any my question now is if ARIN has ensured that this is the same situation in other countries in the service region, because it any country has not similar inexpensive and bureaucratic-less means of becoming a sole-proprietorship, then it is a problem and as said, I will consider it a discrimination.<br>
<br>
Moreover, law in any country can change, so having this requirement, it means ARIN policies/membership is too dependent on law changes, which I don?t think is a good and safe way.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
> El 8 abr 2025, a las 20:06, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> escribi?:<br>
> <br>
> Hi Jordi<br>
> <br>
> The eventual cost for it, even in the Latin America Region for comparison, is negligible, since this model of doing business by yourself is normally very simplified. Additionally whoever is in need of resources for various usages may already have some type of operation with income or gains that justify this minimal spending to request resources in this legal model mentioned.<br>
> <br>
> Although I see a point in what you say, I don't think there is a pressuring demand of individuals willing to do this and not being able due that.<br>
> <br>
> Yes the point about individuals willing to have their own space allocation is valid, but there are several operational challenges that overcome any legal/bureaucratic ones in my view. Ex: getting a residential broadband connection that establishes a BGP session with the user.<br>
> <br>
> Fernando<br>
> <br>
> On 08/04/2025 14:55, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
>> Hi John,<br>
>> <br>
>> I fully understand your point, however, this is highly depending on each country regulation, in the case of ARIN it may be simpler (I think much less countries than for example in LACNIC or APNIC) and laws, or the way you legalize ?the business? is highly dependent even on possible changes, which may affect their relationship (even risk of cancelation of relationship) with the RIR.<br>
>> <br>
>> Moreover, it means extra cost. Maybe that cost in US and Canada is negligible, but this is subjective, and subjected to changes, subjected to different countries, etc. I don?t think it is logic for a RIR to depend on so many external factors.<br>
>> <br>
>> Also this is excluding an individual not willing to have a business, but willing to have multihoming with IPv6, with requires IPv6 PI, in his/her home. Why we want/need to exclude that? So in this case, he/she will be actually forced achieve the sole proprietorship. As said, in US and Canada may be si just a declaration, but not in many other countries. Is not that enforcing to circumvent the rules? Is that making any sense if you can actually do it legally? I don?t think so, is only adding bureaucracy and cost, which again is different in different countries, so creates a discrimination.<br>
>> <br>
>> We also need to understand that those individuals that decide to directly to connect to Internet and as you said ?present them publicly", will only be able to do so via actual operators that provide them links with BGP, so that already ensures the operational coordination. In the end is the same for any smaller ISP, the overall majority of them don?t get in touch with those hundred thousand global operators, but only with their directly connected carriers, and anyway, they are engaged in public activities.<br>
>> <br>
>> Regards,<br>
>> Jordi<br>
>> <br>
>> @jordipalet<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 19:26, John Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" target="_blank">jcurran@arin.net</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" target="_blank">jcurran@arin.net</a>> escribi?:<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Jordi ? <br>
>>> <br>
>>> I note that individuals are private entities, whereas those who choose to participate in the Internet?s infrastructure are engaging in activities that are fundamentally public in nature. That is, participation carries the potential need for operational coordination with any of over one hundred thousand infrastructure operators globally ? in effect, making it a public activity.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> ARIN requires natural persons to present themselves publicly in order to hold rights to number resources. While this can be accomplished through the formation of a business, it is also readily achievable ? as Bill Herrin noted ? in many countries via a declaration of sole proprietorship, sole trader status, or similar constructs. This is not a circumvention of the ?organizations only? principle, but rather an acknowledgment that the resource holder understands they are engaging in inherently public activity, even if not conducting business per se.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Thanks,<br>
>>> /John<br>
>>> <br>
>>> John Curran<br>
>>> President and CEO<br>
>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>>> On Apr 8, 2025, at 12:00?PM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> The problem/difference is that:<br>
>>>> 1) Not all the countries in LAC will have the same legal situation that US and Canada that seems make it very easy to bypass the ?organizations only?.<br>
>>>> 2) It many countries it may mean extra artificial cost.<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Setting up ?artificial barriers? to avoid individuals to have resources, is not only discriminatory, is also silly, because they can be bypassed with small or no cost in some countries, but bigger cost in other countries. No sense. Also that means we avoid the registries having a few extra members (note that I don?t think it will be a lot, but we should facilitate it, instead of try to avoid it).<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> The justification is a different problem, and this is handled by the initial allocation/assignment policy, not part of this dicussion. Obviously a small business with only a single site, will ask a /48 and if they need more they will need to do a full justification (just an example).<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Regards,<br>
>>>> Jordi<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> @jordipalet<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> <br>
>>>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 17:13, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> escribi?:<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> Therefore it is the same in LACNIC which works pretty much similar to what Bill described for some jurisdictions.<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> But more important then this bureaucracy is that whoever is requesting the resources be able to justify the need for them, even for IPv6-only which is not scarce. Base should be able to justify the usage on some operation.<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> Fernando<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> On 08/04/2025 11:42, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
>>>>>> Hi Bill,<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> Yes, is the same in the EU (at least in Spain), when you have a self-employed, tax declaration is mixed.<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> The only issue is that even if you have no business, you need to pay a monthly fee (social security, VAT declaration every 3 months, even if no activity, etc.) for keeping up the status of self-employed. Not sure if in US and Canada is the same.<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> Creating a corporation like the ?sloe proprietorship? that you mention, even if the cost is very low, still means that you need to do yearly declarations, etc. Again not sure if in US and Canada is the same.<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> So I feel that this way in ARIN (and LACNIC) is not good for individuals, because it adds additional cost and burden that is discriminatory. Specially because in other countries (Caribbean) it may be not so easy, and this is the same in LACNIC that has more countries, which may have much different regulations, etc.<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> The question here is *if* ARIN allowed (before) individuals to get resources, why it changed? it seems to be a step backwards, and decreasing competitiveness o<br>
>>>>>> self-employee and in fact small-medium business.<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> Tks!<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> Regards,<br>
>>>>>> Jordi<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> @jordipalet<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 15:57, William Herrin <<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank">bill@herrin.us</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank">bill@herrin.us</a>> escribi?:<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2025 at 2:01?AM jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML<br>
>>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>> I?m trying to understand if is possible in ARIN for both, a natural person with<br>
>>>>>>>> an economic activity (not sure if this is also call self-employment in all the<br>
>>>>>>>> ARIN service countries) and a natural person for its own ?private? life, to obtain resources.<br>
>>>>>>> Hi Jordi,<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> ARIN no longer contracts with natural persons, only businesses.<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> However, in the U.S. and Canada (I'm not sure about the Caribbean)<br>
>>>>>>> it's a trivial matter to establish a "sole proprietorship." Some<br>
>>>>>>> states don't even require registration; you simply declare it. In<br>
>>>>>>> others it requires filling out a form and paying a small fee. In both<br>
>>>>>>> cases, the individual's personal and business finances are mixed<br>
>>>>>>> together; there are no separate taxes or accounting or anything like<br>
>>>>>>> that. The sole proprietorship is a business which can contract with<br>
>>>>>>> ARIN and acquire IP addresses.<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> Look up AS11875 for an example of how this works.<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> Regards,<br>
>>>>>>> Bill Herrin<br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>>> -- <br>
>>>>>>> William Herrin<br>
>>>>>>> <a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank">bill@herrin.us</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank">bill@herrin.us</a>><br>
>>>>>>> <a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bill.herrin.us/</a><br>
>>>>>> **********************************************<br>
>>>>>> IPv4 is over<br>
>>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
>>>>>> <a href="http://www.theipv6company.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a> <<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com/</a>><br>
>>>>>> The IPv6 Company<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> <br>
>>>>>> <br>
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>>>> <br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> **********************************************<br>
>>>> IPv4 is over<br>
>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.theipv6company.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a> <<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com/</a>><br>
>>>> The IPv6 Company<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
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>>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> **********************************************<br>
>> IPv4 is over<br>
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
>> <a href="http://www.theipv6company.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a> <<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com/</a>><br>
>> The IPv6 Company<br>
>> <br>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
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**********************************************<br>
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Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
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