[arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals

Tue Apr 8 14:06:39 EDT 2025

Hi Jordi

The eventual cost for it, even in the Latin America Region for 
comparison, is negligible, since this model of doing business by 
yourself is normally very simplified. Additionally whoever is in need of 
resources for various usages may already have some type of operation 
with income or gains that justify this minimal spending to request 
resources in this legal model mentioned.

Although I see a point in what you say, I don't think there is a 
pressuring demand of individuals willing to do this and not being able 
due that.

Yes the point about individuals willing to have their own space 
allocation is valid, but there are several operational challenges that 
overcome any legal/bureaucratic ones in my view. Ex: getting a 
residential broadband connection that establishes a BGP session with the 
user.

Fernando

On 08/04/2025 14:55, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> I fully understand your point, however, this is highly depending on 
> each country regulation, in the case of ARIN it may be simpler (I 
> think much less countries than for example in LACNIC or APNIC) and 
> laws, or the way you legalize “the business” is highly dependent even 
> on possible changes, which may affect their relationship (even risk of 
> cancelation of relationship) with the RIR.
>
> Moreover, it means extra cost. Maybe that cost in US and Canada is 
> negligible, but this is subjective, and subjected to changes, 
> subjected to different countries, etc. I don’t think it is logic for a 
> RIR to depend on so many external factors.
>
> Also this is excluding an individual not willing to have a business, 
> but willing to have multihoming with IPv6, with requires IPv6 PI, in 
> his/her home. Why we want/need to exclude that? So in this case, 
> he/she will be actually forced achieve the sole proprietorship. As 
> said, in US and Canada may be si just a declaration, but not in many 
> other countries. Is not that enforcing to circumvent the rules? Is 
> that making any sense if you can actually do it legally? I don’t think 
> so, is only adding bureaucracy and cost, which again is different in 
> different countries, so creates a discrimination.
>
> We also need to understand that those individuals that decide to 
> directly to connect to Internet and as you said “present them 
> publicly", will only be able to do so via actual operators that 
> provide them links with BGP, so that already ensures the operational 
> coordination. In the end is the same for any smaller ISP, the overall 
> majority of them don’t get in touch with those hundred thousand global 
> operators, but only with their directly connected carriers, and 
> anyway, they are engaged in  public activities.
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 19:26, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> escribió:
>>
>> Jordi –
>>
>> I note that individuals are private entities, whereas those who 
>> choose to participate in the Internet’s infrastructure are engaging 
>> in activities that are fundamentally public in nature. That is, 
>> participation carries the potential need for operational coordination 
>> with any of over one hundred thousand infrastructure operators 
>> globally — in effect, making it a public activity.
>>
>> ARIN requires natural persons to present themselves publicly in order 
>> to hold rights to number resources. While this can be accomplished 
>> through the formation of a business, it is also readily achievable — 
>> as Bill Herrin noted — in many countries via a declaration of sole 
>> proprietorship, sole trader status, or similar constructs. This is 
>> not a circumvention of the “organizations only” principle, but rather 
>> an acknowledgment that the resource holder understands they are 
>> engaging in inherently public activity, even if not conducting 
>> business per se.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 8, 2025, at 12:00 PM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML 
>>> <arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> The problem/difference is that:
>>> 1) Not all the countries in LAC will have the same legal situation 
>>> that US and Canada that seems make it very easy to bypass the 
>>> “organizations only”.
>>> 2) It many countries it may mean extra artificial cost.
>>>
>>> Setting up “artificial barriers” to avoid individuals to have 
>>> resources, is not only discriminatory, is also silly, because they 
>>> can be bypassed with small or no cost in some countries, but bigger 
>>> cost in other countries. No sense. Also that means we avoid the 
>>> registries having a few extra members (note that I don’t think it 
>>> will be a lot, but we should facilitate it, instead of try to avoid it).
>>>
>>> The justification is a different problem, and this is handled by the 
>>> initial allocation/assignment policy, not part of this dicussion. 
>>> Obviously a small business with only a single site, will ask a /48 
>>> and if they need more they will need to do a full justification 
>>> (just an example).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jordi
>>>
>>> @jordipalet
>>>
>>>
>>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 17:13, Fernando Frediani 
>>>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com> escribió:
>>>>
>>>> Therefore it is the same in LACNIC which works pretty much similar 
>>>> to what Bill described for some jurisdictions.
>>>>
>>>> But more important then this bureaucracy is that whoever is 
>>>> requesting the resources be able to justify the need for them, even 
>>>> for IPv6-only which is not scarce. Base should be able to justify 
>>>> the usage on some operation.
>>>>
>>>> Fernando
>>>>
>>>> On 08/04/2025 11:42, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, is the same in the EU (at least in Spain), when you have a self-employed, tax declaration is mixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only issue is that even if you have no business, you need to pay a monthly fee (social security, VAT declaration every 3 months, even if no activity, etc.) for keeping up the status of self-employed. Not sure if in US and Canada is the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> Creating a corporation like the “sloe proprietorship” that you mention, even if the cost is very low, still means that you need to do yearly declarations, etc. Again not sure if in US and Canada is the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I feel that this way in ARIN (and LACNIC) is not good for individuals, because it adds additional cost and burden that is discriminatory. Specially because in other countries (Caribbean) it may be not so easy, and this is the same in LACNIC that has more countries, which may have much different regulations, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question here is *if* ARIN allowed (before) individuals to get resources, why it changed? it seems to be a step backwards, and decreasing competitiveness o
>>>>> self-employee and in fact small-medium business.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Jordi
>>>>>
>>>>> @jordipalet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 15:57, William Herrin<bill at herrin.us> escribió:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2025 at 2:01 AM jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML
>>>>>> <arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I’m trying to understand if is possible in ARIN  for both, a natural person with
>>>>>>> an economic activity (not sure if this is also call self-employment in all the
>>>>>>> ARIN service countries) and a natural person for its own “private” life, to obtain resources.
>>>>>> Hi Jordi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ARIN no longer contracts with natural persons, only businesses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, in the U.S. and Canada (I'm not sure about the Caribbean)
>>>>>> it's a trivial matter to establish a "sole proprietorship." Some
>>>>>> states don't even require registration; you simply declare it. In
>>>>>> others it requires filling out a form and paying a small fee. In both
>>>>>> cases, the individual's personal and business finances are mixed
>>>>>> together; there are no separate taxes or accounting or anything like
>>>>>> that. The sole proprietorship is a business which can contract with
>>>>>> ARIN and acquire IP addresses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Look up AS11875 for an example of how this works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Bill Herrin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> William Herrin
>>>>>> bill at herrin.us
>>>>>> https://bill.herrin.us/
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>> copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, 
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>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged 
> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive 
> use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty 
> authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of 
> this information, even if partially, including attached files, is 
> strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you 
> are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, 
> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if 
> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be 
> considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original 
> sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>
>
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