[arin-ppml] Public Policy meeting agenda

Matt Erculiani merculiani at gmail.com
Wed Oct 30 17:33:54 EDT 2024


> Posting to the PPML is intimidating. Impostor syndrome is very common in
> this industry, and having the ability to have your posts seen by big
> name people in our field can be a psychological deterrent.

> Encouraging participation starts with understanding why people could be
> discouraged from participating. This is an opt-in list with a high bar
> for what we're asked to understand.

I've never felt so heard before without having to say a word.

> Combine that with the occasional combativeness
> displayed by some contributors, and it only becomes more intimidating.

I can speak from personal experience that all it takes is a particularly
sour interaction as a newer participant to go from:
"Wow, this is an exciting cause and this fellowship program was awesome and
I can't wait to spend more of my free time on this!"
to
"Wow, if I wanted to be spoken down to like this, I'd just go to more HOA
meetings..."

That said, I've had some very positive interactions too and those are
always a reassuring sign that there is a sense of belonging to be had at
some point.

Just my $0.02.

-Matt

On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 10:42 AM Adair Thaxton <sthaxton at internet2.edu>
wrote:

> Perhaps making generalizations about the people you wish to participate
> more, is not the best way to encourage their participation.
>
> Posting to the PPML is intimidating. Impostor syndrome is very common in
> this industry, and having the ability to have your posts seen by big
> name people in our field can be a psychological deterrent. For example,
> consider your first "Holy shit, John Freaking Curran just replied to
> me!" moment. Nobody wants to say something dumb in front of John
> Freaking Curran. Combine that with the occasional combativeness
> displayed by some contributors, and it only becomes more intimidating.
>
> I attended my second ARIN last week and was deeply impressed how
> thoroughly people like Kevin Blumberg and Lee Howard know NRPM, just
> throwing out section numbers and definitions like they have it
> memorized. I do not have that level of familiarity with NRPM (maybe by
> Charlotte?) but I've always been an "ask questions anyway" person, and
> several new attendees have thanked me for asking questions they had as
> well but didn't verbalize.
>
> Encouraging participation starts with understanding why people could be
> discouraged from participating. This is an opt-in list with a high bar
> for what we're asked to understand. The policies and definitions are
> specific and exacting, sometimes verging on arcane, and the person
> you're replying to may well have 20+ years of historical context that
> you don't personally have.
>
> Further, Millennials are fairly well-represented on the ARIN AC -
> particularly in an industry where we regularly have to exhort longtime
> attendees to please, please, please bring a junior employee with them.
> The Fellows program is a great step in encouraging participation from
> younger people. Lamenting younger generations' lack of participation is
> a disservice to those who jump in with both feet and are invested in
> ARIN's mission and future.
>
> I think we could do a better job with providing links to definitions to
> things that are terms of art, on both postings on the PPML and on the
> draft policies page. I think that maybe using something like Google Docs
> (where contributors may Suggest or Comment, but not edit) would be
> interesting. I think that asking newer attendees how they best
> understand information may be a step in the right direction -
> personally, I appreciated that there were a handful of paper policy
> booklets available for those of us who prefer to be able to mark up a
> copy on our own!
>
> Pipermail archives are available, archived, easy to search, familiar,
> and automatically generated... but not necessarily well-presented. Just
> because they serve a function doesn't mean that function cannot be
> improved.
>
> Adair
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/30/24 10:13, Fernando Frediani wrote:
> > I am on this for a couple of years and still often hear colleagues
> > talking about the reasons for low participation on Policy Forums. Some
> > blame some discussions are discouraging while other mention email list
> > format.
> >
> > One thing to take in consideration is that these topics are not trivial
> > and requires a minimal amount of time and patience dedicated to read,
> > understand and write.
> > I see that those who don't participate is simply because they don't want
> > or don't consider this topic of any priority in their lives and don't
> > put up the necessary time.
> >
> > I think mailing-list continues to be the best method for the discussions
> > to happen as it is well established for decades, everything gets
> > recorded on both list archives and people's mailboxes and keeps an
> > organized record of everything that has happened to be easily consulted
> > over time.
> > Gen Z and Millennials in general often is seen to resist to email and
> > wish to use messaging applications that not only make records go missing
> > quiet easily but also reduce the quality of the discussion and taking
> > off it important details.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Fernando
> >
> > On 29/10/2024 13:44, Andrew Dul via ARIN-PPML wrote:
> >>
> >> In addition to the ability of the community to engage with each other
> >> at the public policy meetings, the community has the opportunity to
> >> engage with each other in this forum "the PPML."
> >>
> >> While this forum is open to all who wish to participate, over the
> >> years my observation is that the number of people who participate
> >> interactively in this forum appears to decline and I hear from various
> >> members of the community that they do not participate in the written
> >> PPML forum for a number of reasons.
> >>
> >> We often see the AC shepherds prodding for input only to often see no
> >> replies or replies from the same dozen or so participants.  This
> >> community is much larger than those participants.  Over the years, it
> >> appears the use of mailing lists has become less comfortable for some
> >> community participants.  While I understand some of those reasons the
> >> fact remains that we are are here to do the public work of developing
> >> IP number resource policy and that policy should be carried out in
> >> public.  If a mailing-list isn't the right method to carry out this
> >> public work, then we must figure out what is the right way to continue
> >> this work so that IP number resource policy which is developed for the
> >> Internet community in the ARIN region is open and reflective of the
> >> Internet community that ARIN represents.
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/26/24 11:14 AM, Lee Howard via ARIN-PPML wrote:
> >>> Top-posting because that's how email has worked for the last 20 years
> :-(
> >>>
> >>> There are three kinds of meetings required in the ARIN Bylaws [1]:
> >>> * Public Policy /and /Members Meetings (biannual)
> >>> * Annual Meeting (annual)
> >>>
> >>> A strong delineation between meetings is not the only way to achieve
> >>> their objectives. But we must prioritize the core objectives. All of
> >>> the laudable big tent objectives are secondary.
> >>> In my experience, largely supported by the hallway track, people
> >>> don't travel thousands of miles to ARIN Public Policy and Members
> >>> meetings to hear department reports and updates from external
> >>> agencies. We travel because we can get more conversation about
> >>> proposals done in person than in months of PPML. It would be great to
> >>> hear from others on why they come: respond to the meeting survey
> >>> <https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/ARIN54>! And/or, join this
> conversation!
> >>>
> >>> Again, that is not to say that I'm not interested in the work on
> >>> ICP-2 or RPKI or ARIN Online developments: quite the opposite! But I
> >>> read the mission statement as a prioritized list:
> >>> 1. ARIN supports the operation of the Internet through the management
> >>> of Internet number resources throughout its service region;
> >>> 2. coordinates the development of policies by the community for the
> >>> management of Internet Protocol number resources; and
> >>> 3. advances the Internet through informational outreach.
> >>> ARIN will continue to utilize an open, transparent multi-stakeholder
> >>> process for registry policy development. [2]
> >>>
> >>> The fact that Hollis and Bill managed the afternoon to get us through
> >>> the other ten proposals is amazing. At lunch, we had been through two
> >>> of twelve proposals. Based on that rate of progression, nobody
> >>> thought we would get through the rest of the draft proposals, and
> >>> this was a hot topic in the hallway. So I disagree with you that it
> >>> was not an issue: it was a clear issue, and Hollis and Bill were able
> >>> to pull us through.
> >>>
> >>> This isn't the first time we've been tight for time on public policy
> >>> discussion; I seem to recall occasions where we had to move
> >>> discussion to the list. That almost happened this time, and I think
> >>> "How we use attendees' time" especially with regard to public policy
> >>> is a significant enough issue to bring it to PPML. If I'm alone among
> >>> the community in this concern, I'll settle down.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks again, and always, for an excellent meeting and for
> >>> facilitating robust discussion of issues that are important to the
> >>> community.
> >>>
> >>> Lee
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] "ARIN will hold Public Policy and Members Meetings biannually and
> >>> in person when possible. ARIN’s Annual Meeting is held annually and
> >>> may coincide with an ARIN Public Policy and Members Meeting. "
> >>> https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/
> >>> Excluding Bylaws about Board and AC meetings.
> >>>
> >>> [2] https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/, Article II, Section
> 2
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Friday, October 25, 2024 at 10:53:21 AM EDT, John Curran
> >>> <jcurran at arin.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 24, 2024, at 6:36 PM, Lee Howard via ARIN-PPML
> >>>> <arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> In the spirit of offering constructive feedback, I would like to
> >>>> describe what I would like to see at ARIN Public Policy meetings.
> >>>>
> >>>> Broadly, the purpose of the Public Policy Meetings is to discuss
> >>>> policy and policy proposals. The purpose of the Members Meeting is
> >>>> to provide the Members with information about the operation of the
> >>>> organization, especially as it will help guide governance, including
> >>>> elections.
> >>>> ...
> >>>> I think this organization will better align the work in each meeting
> >>>> with the purpose of the meeting.
> >>>
> >>> Lee -
> >>>
> >>>     Thanks for sending this! I also noted your comment at the
> >>>     microphone that we should never shortchange public policy
> >>>     discussions at these meetings—a view that I strongly agree with
> >>>     (and observed that, thanks to Hollis and Chair Sandiford’s
> >>>     excellent moderation, this was not an issue yesterday).
> >>>
> >>>     As you are aware, we tended to have a stronger delineation
> >>>     between the Public Policy Meeting and the Members Meeting in the
> >>>     past, and it is true that we could organize that way in the
> future.
> >>>
> >>>     However, I believe there are a few factors to consider before we
> >>>     commit to a strict delineation –
> >>>
> >>>      1. In recent years, we’ve been able to “expand the tent” of ARIN
> >>>         members; in other words, members are no longer limited to
> >>>         ISPs and large organizations. Due to changes in membership
> >>>         structure, nearly every customer is now an ARIN member. As
> >>>         such, those participating in our public policy discussions
> >>>         are largely ARIN members—individuals from organizations that
> >>>         pay fees to support ARIN, receive services from ARIN, and can
> >>>         (if they wish) become general members and participate in
> >>>         ARIN’s governance.
> >>>      2. We are also in an era where ARIN is engaged in many
> >>>         activities beyond just number resource policy, which have the
> >>>         potential for significant implications for all of ARIN’s
> >>>         customers. For example, topics such as the evolution and
> >>>         deployment of RPKI services, the current ICP-2 update
> >>>         activities, and our cybersecurity efforts are not public
> >>>         policy per se, but they have equally significant potential
> >>>         impacts on ARIN’s customers. As such, these topics deserve to
> >>>         be informed by feedback from our entire customer community.
> >>>      3. Finally, I note that ARIN is committed to capacity
> >>>         development within the ARIN community—i.e., we aim to improve
> >>>         the knowledge and experience of our entire community. Over
> >>>         time, this has proven to help grow our pool of volunteers who
> >>>         advance to important roles such as the ARIN AC, the ASO AC,
> >>>         and the ARIN Board of Trustees.  Those participating in our
> >>>         meetings presently gain broad exposure to all aspects of ARIN
> >>>         – not just number resource policy development – and I do
> >>>         worry that a strict delineation of the Public Policy Meeting
> >>>         and the Members Meeting could hinder an important element of
> >>>         cross-pollination that has historically bolstered leadership
> >>>         development from within ARIN’s community.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     To be clear, I am not saying that a clear distinction between the
> >>>     two aspects of the meeting is no possible, but rather that there
> >>>     are potential downsides that should be considered and balanced
> >>>     against any benefits we hope to achieve by such delineation.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>> /John
> >>>
> >>> John Curran
> >>> President and CEO
> >>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> ARIN-PPML
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> >>> Please contactinfo at arin.net  if you experience any issues.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> ARIN-PPML
> >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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> >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> >> Please contactinfo at arin.net  if you experience any issues.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ARIN-PPML
> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-PPML
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-- 
Matt Erculiani
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