<div dir="ltr"><div>> Posting to the PPML is intimidating. Impostor syndrome is very common in</div>> this industry, and having the ability to have your posts seen by big<br>> name people in our field can be a psychological deterrent.<div><br></div><div>> Encouraging participation starts with understanding why people could be</div>> discouraged from participating. This is an opt-in list with a high bar<br>> for what we're asked to understand.<div><br></div><div>I've never felt so heard before without having to say a word.<br><div><br></div><div>> Combine that with the occasional combativeness</div>> displayed by some contributors, and it only becomes more intimidating.<br><div><br></div>I can speak from personal experience that all it takes is a particularly sour interaction as a newer participant to go from:<div><div>"Wow, this is an exciting cause and this fellowship program was awesome and I can't wait to spend more of my free time on this!"</div><div>to </div><div>"Wow, if I wanted to be spoken down to like this, I'd just go to more HOA meetings..."</div><div><br></div><div>That said, I've had some very positive interactions too and those are always a reassuring sign that there is a sense of belonging to be had at some point. </div><div><br></div><div>Just my $0.02. </div><div><br></div><div>-Matt</div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 10:42 AM Adair Thaxton <<a href="mailto:sthaxton@internet2.edu">sthaxton@internet2.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Perhaps making generalizations about the people you wish to participate <br>
more, is not the best way to encourage their participation.<br>
<br>
Posting to the PPML is intimidating. Impostor syndrome is very common in <br>
this industry, and having the ability to have your posts seen by big <br>
name people in our field can be a psychological deterrent. For example, <br>
consider your first "Holy shit, John Freaking Curran just replied to <br>
me!" moment. Nobody wants to say something dumb in front of John <br>
Freaking Curran. Combine that with the occasional combativeness <br>
displayed by some contributors, and it only becomes more intimidating.<br>
<br>
I attended my second ARIN last week and was deeply impressed how <br>
thoroughly people like Kevin Blumberg and Lee Howard know NRPM, just <br>
throwing out section numbers and definitions like they have it <br>
memorized. I do not have that level of familiarity with NRPM (maybe by <br>
Charlotte?) but I've always been an "ask questions anyway" person, and <br>
several new attendees have thanked me for asking questions they had as <br>
well but didn't verbalize.<br>
<br>
Encouraging participation starts with understanding why people could be <br>
discouraged from participating. This is an opt-in list with a high bar <br>
for what we're asked to understand. The policies and definitions are <br>
specific and exacting, sometimes verging on arcane, and the person <br>
you're replying to may well have 20+ years of historical context that <br>
you don't personally have.<br>
<br>
Further, Millennials are fairly well-represented on the ARIN AC - <br>
particularly in an industry where we regularly have to exhort longtime <br>
attendees to please, please, please bring a junior employee with them. <br>
The Fellows program is a great step in encouraging participation from <br>
younger people. Lamenting younger generations' lack of participation is <br>
a disservice to those who jump in with both feet and are invested in <br>
ARIN's mission and future.<br>
<br>
I think we could do a better job with providing links to definitions to <br>
things that are terms of art, on both postings on the PPML and on the <br>
draft policies page. I think that maybe using something like Google Docs <br>
(where contributors may Suggest or Comment, but not edit) would be <br>
interesting. I think that asking newer attendees how they best <br>
understand information may be a step in the right direction - <br>
personally, I appreciated that there were a handful of paper policy <br>
booklets available for those of us who prefer to be able to mark up a <br>
copy on our own!<br>
<br>
Pipermail archives are available, archived, easy to search, familiar, <br>
and automatically generated... but not necessarily well-presented. Just <br>
because they serve a function doesn't mean that function cannot be improved.<br>
<br>
Adair<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/30/24 10:13, Fernando Frediani wrote:<br>
> I am on this for a couple of years and still often hear colleagues <br>
> talking about the reasons for low participation on Policy Forums. Some <br>
> blame some discussions are discouraging while other mention email list <br>
> format.<br>
> <br>
> One thing to take in consideration is that these topics are not trivial <br>
> and requires a minimal amount of time and patience dedicated to read, <br>
> understand and write.<br>
> I see that those who don't participate is simply because they don't want <br>
> or don't consider this topic of any priority in their lives and don't <br>
> put up the necessary time.<br>
> <br>
> I think mailing-list continues to be the best method for the discussions <br>
> to happen as it is well established for decades, everything gets <br>
> recorded on both list archives and people's mailboxes and keeps an <br>
> organized record of everything that has happened to be easily consulted <br>
> over time.<br>
> Gen Z and Millennials in general often is seen to resist to email and <br>
> wish to use messaging applications that not only make records go missing <br>
> quiet easily but also reduce the quality of the discussion and taking <br>
> off it important details.<br>
> <br>
> Best regards<br>
> Fernando<br>
> <br>
> On 29/10/2024 13:44, Andrew Dul via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> In addition to the ability of the community to engage with each other <br>
>> at the public policy meetings, the community has the opportunity to <br>
>> engage with each other in this forum "the PPML."<br>
>><br>
>> While this forum is open to all who wish to participate, over the <br>
>> years my observation is that the number of people who participate <br>
>> interactively in this forum appears to decline and I hear from various <br>
>> members of the community that they do not participate in the written <br>
>> PPML forum for a number of reasons.<br>
>><br>
>> We often see the AC shepherds prodding for input only to often see no <br>
>> replies or replies from the same dozen or so participants. This <br>
>> community is much larger than those participants. Over the years, it <br>
>> appears the use of mailing lists has become less comfortable for some <br>
>> community participants. While I understand some of those reasons the <br>
>> fact remains that we are are here to do the public work of developing <br>
>> IP number resource policy and that policy should be carried out in <br>
>> public. If a mailing-list isn't the right method to carry out this <br>
>> public work, then we must figure out what is the right way to continue <br>
>> this work so that IP number resource policy which is developed for the <br>
>> Internet community in the ARIN region is open and reflective of the <br>
>> Internet community that ARIN represents.<br>
>><br>
>> Andrew<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 10/26/24 11:14 AM, Lee Howard via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
>>> Top-posting because that's how email has worked for the last 20 years :-(<br>
>>><br>
>>> There are three kinds of meetings required in the ARIN Bylaws [1]:<br>
>>> * Public Policy /and /Members Meetings (biannual)<br>
>>> * Annual Meeting (annual)<br>
>>><br>
>>> A strong delineation between meetings is not the only way to achieve <br>
>>> their objectives. But we must prioritize the core objectives. All of <br>
>>> the laudable big tent objectives are secondary.<br>
>>> In my experience, largely supported by the hallway track, people <br>
>>> don't travel thousands of miles to ARIN Public Policy and Members <br>
>>> meetings to hear department reports and updates from external <br>
>>> agencies. We travel because we can get more conversation about <br>
>>> proposals done in person than in months of PPML. It would be great to <br>
>>> hear from others on why they come: respond to the meeting survey <br>
>>> <<a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/ARIN54" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/ARIN54</a>>! And/or, join this conversation!<br>
>>><br>
>>> Again, that is not to say that I'm not interested in the work on <br>
>>> ICP-2 or RPKI or ARIN Online developments: quite the opposite! But I <br>
>>> read the mission statement as a prioritized list:<br>
>>> 1. ARIN supports the operation of the Internet through the management <br>
>>> of Internet number resources throughout its service region;<br>
>>> 2. coordinates the development of policies by the community for the <br>
>>> management of Internet Protocol number resources; and<br>
>>> 3. advances the Internet through informational outreach.<br>
>>> ARIN will continue to utilize an open, transparent multi-stakeholder <br>
>>> process for registry policy development. [2]<br>
>>><br>
>>> The fact that Hollis and Bill managed the afternoon to get us through <br>
>>> the other ten proposals is amazing. At lunch, we had been through two <br>
>>> of twelve proposals. Based on that rate of progression, nobody <br>
>>> thought we would get through the rest of the draft proposals, and <br>
>>> this was a hot topic in the hallway. So I disagree with you that it <br>
>>> was not an issue: it was a clear issue, and Hollis and Bill were able <br>
>>> to pull us through.<br>
>>><br>
>>> This isn't the first time we've been tight for time on public policy <br>
>>> discussion; I seem to recall occasions where we had to move <br>
>>> discussion to the list. That almost happened this time, and I think <br>
>>> "How we use attendees' time" especially with regard to public policy <br>
>>> is a significant enough issue to bring it to PPML. If I'm alone among <br>
>>> the community in this concern, I'll settle down.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Thanks again, and always, for an excellent meeting and for <br>
>>> facilitating robust discussion of issues that are important to the <br>
>>> community.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Lee<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> [1] "ARIN will hold Public Policy and Members Meetings biannually and <br>
>>> in person when possible. ARIN’s Annual Meeting is held annually and <br>
>>> may coincide with an ARIN Public Policy and Members Meeting. " <br>
>>> <a href="https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/</a><br>
>>> Excluding Bylaws about Board and AC meetings.<br>
>>><br>
>>> [2] <a href="https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/</a>, Article II, Section 2<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Friday, October 25, 2024 at 10:53:21 AM EDT, John Curran <br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" target="_blank">jcurran@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>> On Oct 24, 2024, at 6:36 PM, Lee Howard via ARIN-PPML <br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> In the spirit of offering constructive feedback, I would like to <br>
>>>> describe what I would like to see at ARIN Public Policy meetings.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Broadly, the purpose of the Public Policy Meetings is to discuss <br>
>>>> policy and policy proposals. The purpose of the Members Meeting is <br>
>>>> to provide the Members with information about the operation of the <br>
>>>> organization, especially as it will help guide governance, including <br>
>>>> elections.<br>
>>>> ...<br>
>>>> I think this organization will better align the work in each meeting <br>
>>>> with the purpose of the meeting.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Lee -<br>
>>><br>
>>> Thanks for sending this! I also noted your comment at the<br>
>>> microphone that we should never shortchange public policy<br>
>>> discussions at these meetings—a view that I strongly agree with<br>
>>> (and observed that, thanks to Hollis and Chair Sandiford’s<br>
>>> excellent moderation, this was not an issue yesterday).<br>
>>><br>
>>> As you are aware, we tended to have a stronger delineation<br>
>>> between the Public Policy Meeting and the Members Meeting in the<br>
>>> past, and it is true that we could organize that way in the future.
<br>
>>><br>
>>> However, I believe there are a few factors to consider before we<br>
>>> commit to a strict delineation –<br>
>>><br>
>>> 1. In recent years, we’ve been able to “expand the tent” of ARIN<br>
>>> members; in other words, members are no longer limited to<br>
>>> ISPs and large organizations. Due to changes in membership<br>
>>> structure, nearly every customer is now an ARIN member. As<br>
>>> such, those participating in our public policy discussions<br>
>>> are largely ARIN members—individuals from organizations that<br>
>>> pay fees to support ARIN, receive services from ARIN, and can<br>
>>> (if they wish) become general members and participate in<br>
>>> ARIN’s governance.
<br>
>>> 2. We are also in an era where ARIN is engaged in many<br>
>>> activities beyond just number resource policy, which have the<br>
>>> potential for significant implications for all of ARIN’s<br>
>>> customers. For example, topics such as the evolution and<br>
>>> deployment of RPKI services, the current ICP-2 update<br>
>>> activities, and our cybersecurity efforts are not public<br>
>>> policy per se, but they have equally significant potential<br>
>>> impacts on ARIN’s customers. As such, these topics deserve to<br>
>>> be informed by feedback from our entire customer community.<br>
>>> 3. Finally, I note that ARIN is committed to capacity<br>
>>> development within the ARIN community—i.e., we aim to improve<br>
>>> the knowledge and experience of our entire community. Over<br>
>>> time, this has proven to help grow our pool of volunteers who<br>
>>> advance to important roles such as the ARIN AC, the ASO AC,<br>
>>> and the ARIN Board of Trustees. Those participating in our<br>
>>> meetings presently gain broad exposure to all aspects of ARIN<br>
>>> – not just number resource policy development – and I do<br>
>>> worry that a strict delineation of the Public Policy Meeting<br>
>>> and the Members Meeting could hinder an important element of<br>
>>> cross-pollination that has historically bolstered leadership<br>
>>> development from within ARIN’s community.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> To be clear, I am not saying that a clear distinction between the<br>
>>> two aspects of the meeting is no possible, but rather that there<br>
>>> are potential downsides that should be considered and balanced<br>
>>> against any benefits we hope to achieve by such delineation.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Thanks!<br>
>>> /John<br>
>>><br>
>>> John Curran<br>
>>> President and CEO<br>
>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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> <br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Matt Erculiani<br></div></div>