[arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations
Fernando Frediani
fhfrediani at gmail.com
Fri Mar 11 14:37:05 EST 2022
Scott, the point is that we should not be spending much time and should
dismiss such proposal because although it may not look like it is
willing to change a fundamental thing about IP address usage based on
justification, something that doesn't require to much debate such
obvious it is. Fundamentally we are not dealing with an irrevocable
asset that someone purchased and may dispose or sell it at he/she
wishes, but about a right to use which may be revoked if used against
the rules.
Therefore it should not need too much debate to find out that anyone
using this scarce resources, that doesn't belong to anyone individually
MUST always justify for that need.
There is already a neutral and well established entity tasked to
evaluate those justifications, the RIR, and we all assume they do this
in the most impartial way. And better they do this directlly with those
who are really using the resources, not via a 3rd party who have
financial interest in it.
For those that for a moment believe a lessor may be able to justify to
the RIR that "their clients are really using it" (just look how absurd
this is!), it is a lot simple and removes any points of doubt to just
have any unjustified space to be returned to the RIR and they, according
to the current agreed rules will re-distribute those addresses to those
who are really building operational networks in a most neutral and fair
way, not to those who are able to pay more for it.
If for some reason a resource holder realizes doesn't need any addresses
anymore there are always the Transfer policies in place. As long the
receiver can justify the need and building networks ARIN will proceed
with the transfer.
We do not need 3rd parties making it even more complex something that
can remain simple in the hands of the RIR - and avoids pretending
leasing is a normal and legitimate thing. At the end that only
beneficiaries are the companies who intermediate these type of business
and have financial interest in it, not the organizations who need IP
addresses.
I don't care that leasing "makes it cheaper" in short time for those
without IP addresses to get some, but only that those who really justify
for those resources do that directly with the RIR which is the fairer
thing to all involved - all the community - which is the most important.
We if let these 3rd parties turn something unnecessary in something
normal we all know where it is going to end basically because their
interest is not a better and fair distribution of IP addresses to those
who really need or who are building networks, but simple to those who
are willing to pay more.
Regards
Fernando
Em 11/03/2022 15:43, Scott Leibrand escreveu:
> It seems that lots of people oppose this policy based on
> their assumptions about what it will do to the economics of the IP
> address transfer market, but no one is making those assumptions
> explicit or describing what exactly they think would happen if it were
> passed.
>
> Right now https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales is showing recent
> prices of about $55 per IP (to buy them on the transfer market), up
> from about $30/IP a year ago.
>
> Right now https://www.heficed.com/lease-ipv4/ is quoting $0.50/mo per
> IP ($546 for 1024 addresses). The data at
> https://www.ipxo.com/blog/leasing-vs-buying-ip-addresses/ is a bit
> older, but indicates that in late 2020, prices were in a similar range
> of $0.34 - $0.67 per IP.
>
> If someone buys addresses at $55 each and leases them out at $0.50/mo,
> it would take 110 months (9 years) to cover the cost. That would be a
> lousy business, so clearly, entities leasing space are expecting IPv4
> purchase prices to continue rising more quickly than their cost of
> financing, and expect to be able to sell any addresses they buy at a
> profit.
>
> Leasing is clearly already happening. Right now it has to be done
> using RIPE space or by an entity that has (at least nominal) network
> connectivity.
>
> If you oppose or support this policy on grounds that it will affect
> the supply and demand of addresses, can you be more specific as to
> what effects you expect relaxing the justification requirements for
> those offering IP leasing who want to buy more space to lease
> out would have? How would this policy affect the demand and price of
> IPv4 addresses bought and sold on the transfer market? How would that
> affect the supply, demand, and price of IPv4 addresses available for
> lease? How would that affect network operators? Would more of them
> switch from purchasing addresses to leasing them? With leasing
> (currently) being cheaper than purchasing (because a purchase is also
> an investment in a currently-appreciating asset), would it help or
> hurt network operators for leasing to be considered a more legitimate
> option?
>
> -Scott
>
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 10:02 AM Fernando Frediani
> <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/03/2022 14:56, Tom Fantacone wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> We can quibble about semantics, but let's go with your verbiage:
>>
>> If I run a network and qualify for an /18 right now, can I go to
>> ARIN and lease one? I must either /pay someone to release their
>> addresses to ARIN to lease to me/ or lease one from a (non-ARIN)
>> 3rd party.
> And that should always be the expected, release them to ARIN which
> should be the only actor taking care of it.
> I really fail to understand how can one consider legit that a 3rd
> party could be doing this job otherwise.
>
> If everybody sticks that what is expected, things work better, is
> much better to trust ARIN to do this plus in the end doing in such
> way doesn't least space for speculation, price rises and community
> have the assurance that the one who is intermediating it is
> someone really neutral and with no other interests to the business
> other than make sure the policies are being followed.
>
> Fernando
>
>>
>> And the amount I must pay (commonly referred to as the Purchase
>> Price in most IPv4 transfer contracts, whether I'm technically
>> "buying" it or not), is significantly more than either typical
>> lease rates or ARIN's annual fees. My point is that 3rd party
>> lessors do provide a service that ARIN does not.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tom Fantacone
>>
>>
>>
>> ---- On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:42:52 -0500 *William Herrin
>> <bill at herrin.us> <mailto:bill at herrin.us>* wrote ----
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:40 AM Tom Fantacone
>> <tom at iptrading.com> wrote:
>> > If I run a network and qualify for an /18 right now, can I
>> got to ARIN and lease one? I must either buy one on the
>> transfer market
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> I think you misunderstand the transfer market. You don't buy
>> addresses
>> on the transfer market. You lease addresses from ARIN and
>> then pay
>> someone on the transfer market to release their addresses to
>> ARIN for
>> lease to you.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bill Herrin
>>
>>
>> --
>> William Herrin
>> bill at herrin.us
>> https://bill.herrin.us/
>>
>>
>>
>>
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