<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Scott, the point is that we should not be spending much time and
should dismiss such proposal because although it may not look like
it is willing to change a fundamental thing about IP address usage
based on justification, something that doesn't require to much
debate such obvious it is. Fundamentally we are not dealing with
an irrevocable asset that someone purchased and may dispose or
sell it at he/she wishes, but about a right to use which may be
revoked if used against the rules.<br>
Therefore it should not need too much debate to find out that
anyone using this scarce resources, that doesn't belong to anyone
individually MUST always justify for that need.</p>
<p>There is already a neutral and well established entity tasked to
evaluate those justifications, the RIR, and we all assume they do
this in the most impartial way. And better they do this directlly
with those who are really using the resources, not via a 3rd party
who have financial interest in it.<br>
</p>
<p>For those that for a moment believe a lessor may be able to
justify to the RIR that "their clients are really using it" (just
look how absurd this is!), it is a lot simple and removes any
points of doubt to just have any unjustified space to be returned
to the RIR and they, according to the current agreed rules will
re-distribute those addresses to those who are really building
operational networks in a most neutral and fair way, not to those
who are able to pay more for it.</p>
<p>If for some reason a resource holder realizes doesn't need any
addresses anymore there are always the Transfer policies in place.
As long the receiver can justify the need and building networks
ARIN will proceed with the transfer.<br>
We do not need 3rd parties making it even more complex something
that can remain simple in the hands of the RIR - and avoids
pretending leasing is a normal and legitimate thing. At the end
that only beneficiaries are the companies who intermediate these
type of business and have financial interest in it, not the
organizations who need IP addresses.<br>
</p>
<p>I don't care that leasing "makes it cheaper" in short time for
those without IP addresses to get some, but only that those who
really justify for those resources do that directly with the RIR
which is the fairer thing to all involved - all the community -
which is the most important. We if let these 3rd parties turn
something unnecessary in something normal we all know where it is
going to end basically because their interest is not a better and
fair distribution of IP addresses to those who really need or who
are building networks, but simple to those who are willing to pay
more.</p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Em 11/03/2022 15:43, Scott Leibrand
escreveu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGkMwz4f_7Uq_7n8xPZBFdZM-aPa+sC8SicBeVd1C1_dmo-jNQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">It seems that lots of people oppose this policy
based on their assumptions about what it will do to the
economics of the IP address transfer market, but no one is
making those assumptions explicit or describing what exactly
they think would happen if it were passed.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Right now <a
href="https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales</a>
is showing recent prices of about $55 per IP (to buy them on
the transfer market), up from about $30/IP a year ago.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Right now <a href="https://www.heficed.com/lease-ipv4/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.heficed.com/lease-ipv4/</a>
is quoting $0.50/mo per IP ($546 for 1024 addresses). The data
at <a
href="https://www.ipxo.com/blog/leasing-vs-buying-ip-addresses/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.ipxo.com/blog/leasing-vs-buying-ip-addresses/</a>
is a bit older, but indicates that in late 2020, prices were
in a similar range of $0.34 - $0.67 per IP.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If someone buys addresses at $55 each and leases them out
at $0.50/mo, it would take 110 months (9 years) to cover the
cost. That would be a lousy business, so clearly, entities
leasing space are expecting IPv4 purchase prices to continue
rising more quickly than their cost of financing, and expect
to be able to sell any addresses they buy at a profit.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Leasing is clearly already happening. Right now it has to
be done using RIPE space or by an entity that has (at least
nominal) network connectivity.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you oppose or support this policy on grounds that it
will affect the supply and demand of addresses, can you be
more specific as to what effects you expect relaxing the
justification requirements for those offering IP leasing who
want to buy more space to lease out would have? How would this
policy affect the demand and price of IPv4 addresses bought
and sold on the transfer market? How would that affect the
supply, demand, and price of IPv4 addresses available for
lease? How would that affect network operators? Would more of
them switch from purchasing addresses to leasing them? With
leasing (currently) being cheaper than purchasing (because a
purchase is also an investment in a currently-appreciating
asset), would it help or hurt network operators for leasing to
be considered a more legitimate option?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Scott</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 10:02
AM Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>On 11/03/2022 14:56, Tom Fantacone wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div>Bill,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can quibble about semantics, but let's go with
your verbiage:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left">If I run a network and
qualify for an /18 right now, can I go to ARIN and
lease one? I must either <i>pay someone to release
their addresses to ARIN to lease to me</i> or lease
one from a (non-ARIN) 3rd party.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
And that should always be the expected, release them to ARIN
which should be the only actor taking care of it.<br>
I really fail to understand how can one consider legit that
a 3rd party could be doing this job otherwise.<br>
<p>If everybody sticks that what is expected, things work
better, is much better to trust ARIN to do this plus in
the end doing in such way doesn't least space for
speculation, price rises and community have the assurance
that the one who is intermediating it is someone really
neutral and with no other interests to the business other
than make sure the policies are being followed.</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="text-align:left"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left">And the amount I must pay
(commonly referred to as the Purchase Price in most
IPv4 transfer contracts, whether I'm technically
"buying" it or not), is significantly more than either
typical lease rates or ARIN's annual fees. My point
is that 3rd party lessors do provide a service that
ARIN does not.<br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left">Regards,<br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left">Tom Fantacone<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="border-top:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);height:0px;margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;line-height:0px"><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_7976876151835855449gmail-m_-4808509796066532705gmail-m_-8107556546104187107gmail-m_-968748883022522820gmail-m_-488674295728572883Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">----
On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:42:52 -0500 <b>William
Herrin <a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><bill@herrin.us></a></b>
wrote ----<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px">
<div>On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:40 AM Tom Fantacone
<<a href="mailto:tom@iptrading.com"
style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">tom@iptrading.com</a>>
wrote: <br>
> If I run a network and qualify for an /18
right now, can I got to ARIN and lease one? I must
either buy one on the transfer market <br>
<br>
Tom, <br>
<br>
I think you misunderstand the transfer market. You
don't buy addresses <br>
on the transfer market. You lease addresses from
ARIN and then pay <br>
someone on the transfer market to release their
addresses to ARIN for <br>
lease to you. <br>
<br>
Regards, <br>
Bill Herrin <br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
William Herrin <br>
<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us"
style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>
<br>
<a href="https://bill.herrin.us/"
style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bill.herrin.us/</a>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
ARIN-PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
<a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>
Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
ARIN-PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
<a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a>
if you experience any issues.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
ARIN-PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>
Please contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>