[arin-ppml] Change of Use and ARIN (was: Re: AFRINIC And The Stability Of The Internet Number Registry System)

Thu Sep 9 15:21:56 EDT 2021

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 17:46 , Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't think this is something to celebrate as it puts over control on membership as both Board and AC are elected exclusively by them while the ultimate power about policies must always be with community, otherwise there is no bottom-up process.
> 
Regardless of your opinion, this is how it is. The board and AC are elected by the members and the board has ultimate control of pretty much everything.

The board aspect of that is true in virtually every region (with the possible exception of RIPE).
> The existence of AC as it is is already something exotic. Plus the fact the AC represents only membership and not community unbalances the process and in a odd scenario could exclude community totally from the process in practice.
> I understand you appraisal to this due the results so far, and that may have been because there have been majority of good people in both Board and AC, or as you said people involved in the process have behaved according to the requirements. But that is not, by far, a good governance model as if the people on these bodies change in the future it allows a easy takeover of the process by bad actors. So in the sense ARIN have had some luck so far.
> Of course those who currently retaining the power would have justification for this model as it fits well for them and will say that everything is fine, but looking from the theoretic point of view there is an unbalance as members should not have the ultimate authority of what a policy should be, but the community which is above them on this matter.
> 
The AC is not particularly exotic, it’s just a larger number of co-chairs instead of 2, for all practical purposes. However, IMHO, it’s a superior process because it provides for a better representation of the diversity of organizations in the ARIN community. The AC includes representatives of backbone providers, end users, cloud providers, eyeball providers, content providers, etc.

In other regions where there isn’t an AC, at most, two of these constituencies are represented in the decision-making body. Let’s face it, the co-chairs, with their power to declare consensus or not are still the decision-making body within the community. Yes, there are cases where they can be obviously wrong, but anything which is a judgment call and not a clear case of consensus or not devolves to the judgment of just two people.

Yes, there are appeal processes, but ARIN has that too in the form of petitions.

It was always my viewpoint before, during, and now after my tenure on the AC that I was there to represent the community even though I was elected by the members. To the best of my knowledge, other AC members had the same view.

Every RIR is subject to takeover by bad actors being elected to the board. AFRINIC’s current state is proof of this fact.

There is NO RIR where members don’t elect the board. There is no RIR where the board doesn’t have the ultimate authority over policy with the possible exception of RIPE-NCC. In this regard, if anything is exotic, it is RIPE-NCC.

Owen

> Fernando
> 
> On 08/09/2021 17:45, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:34 , Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis at velea.eu <mailto:elvis at velea.eu>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Chris,
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04, Chris Woodfield <chris at semihuman.com <mailto:chris at semihuman.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  Don’t forget the the ultimate say does, in fact, lie with the community, in that the members of the Board and the Advisory Council are elected by the community.
>>> 
>>> Allow me to be skeptical about this statement too. I vaguely remember how a well respected board member was not ‘selected’ for candidacy for re-election and was not allowed to defend its seat because some group of people made a decision. This happened just a few years ago and I had quite a few chats with lots of community members that were outraged to see this is possible. It was during an ARIN Meeting in Vancouver, in 2018, if my memory serves me well.
>> 
>> Yes, the nominating committee has broad discretion in eliminating candidates from the slate, including incumbents.
>> 
>> Also, they are not elected by the community, they are elected by the membership (in both cases, board and AC).
>> 
>> As such, the members arguably have ultimate authority. The community has a say, but no actual authority.
>> 
>>>> While there’s always the potential for a cynical take on the community’s ability to affect meaningful change when needed, I’d hope that any egregious policy decisions made by these bodies - decisions that the community agrees are not in line with their collective interests - would result in the Board and/or AC members responsible for those decisions having a much more difficult time with their future re-election campaigns than they would otherwise.
>>> 
>>> PDP shouldn’t really work this way. Bottom-up either.
>> 
>> In the ARIN region, it has been mostly functional as we have generally had both AC and Board members acting in good faith, along with staff doing the same.
>> 
>> I will credit John’s long leadership with much of this. While John and I do not always agree, I have to say that he has done an excellent job of preserving this model of governance and ensuring that staff and the others involved in the process are behaving according to the requirements of their office(s). Much like the late senator McCain, though I rarely agreed with him, both “Johns" have given a great many years of good and faithful service to a public that owes them both gratitude and respect.
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> /elvis
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -Chris
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 10:49 AM, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Elvis
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have the same view as you do.
>>>>> Despite this undertanding (and maybe the Board too - and correct me if I don't reproduce it accuratelly) I refuse the view that "PDP is a concession of the Board to the Community" and - this is what makes it even more controvertial - that 'this does not void ICP-2" due to historical reasons or whatever justification.
>>>>> 
>>>>> They are entiteled to their opinion but I do not believe that corrensponds to practical realitty.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I sincerelly hope that not only ARIN Board by any other RIR Board never void the bottom-up process and respect the ultimate power of community to choose how policies will be, not the Board unilaterally at their will.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Obviouslly this doesn't confuse with the prerrogative of the RIR Board to care about the organization protection and legal protection and I support that including the prerrogative of the Boards to ractify proposals that reached consensus.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Fernando
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, 7 Sep 2021, 14:10 Elvis Daniel Velea, <elvis at velea.eu <mailto:elvis at velea.eu>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 09:10, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> While the Board delegates the administration of policy development routinely to the ARIN AC, but it retains ultimate authority commensurate with the responsibility that they must bear for the organization.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a very useful clarification to have available for those who continue to argue that the community is the ultimate authority on policy matters. Thank you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Very surprised to see John explain how the bottom-up process works (or not) in ARIN and how much influence the ARIN Board has on policy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am also extremely surprised to see the difference in PDP between ARIN and the rest of the RIRs as per John’s statement above.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Elvis
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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