[arin-ppml] IP leasing policy

[Panix]

Fernando,

I respect that you have this vision for how things should work in these cases. Both the PDP and the active community here certainly encourage and support you in submitting a policy proposal if you wish to alter how ARIN handles these. 

But please understand that your underlying hypotheses are demonstrably false in this region, and are counter to the business and engineering practices of the service providers here. It is both common and well accepted to assign small, medium, and large swaths of IPv4 addresses to a downstream who has their own ASN and announces more specifics of your aggregate. Even when that downstream has the ability to request number resources from the RIR, and even when they already have their own number resources from the RIR, there are still many good engineering reasons to also use upstream space. 

Best regards,
David 

> On May 29, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Bill and folks.
> 
> This doesn't need to be complicated. There is plenty of legitimate ways to assign IP space to end-users and customers that are perfectly valid and nobody is disputing it.
> The scenario that matters to us is when a ASN leases its own IP space to be announced by another given this last one has the ability and should get them directly from the RIR. I can't see any scenario that justifies that other than go around the system and pass in front of others paying for it. An ASN received IP space to assign to other scenarios different from this, not to lease to someone other ASN announce pretending the first one is a RIR.
> 
> When an ISP assigns IP to end-users in a broadband connection, a hosted server, a P2P circuit even to bring a BGP session up or even to provide a Out-of-Band connectivity to another ISP it is doing no more than what is meant to be done with the IPs the RIR has assigned to him. For me is very clear the difference between all these scenarios (and others) and the one mentioned above.
> 
> Regards
> Fernando
> 
>> On 29/05/2019 22:27, William Herrin wrote:
>> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:02 PM Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Yeah, if someone is leasing IP addresses means that he (the resource holder) doesn't have use for them anymore.
>> 
>> Hi Fernando,
>> 
>> To be clear, that would be a major change in ARIN policy. To date, all ARIN policy operates under the presumption that following the initial justified use for IP addresses, the resource holder is free to repurpose them in any manner desired. The holder need only justify that use again upon requesting additional resources from ARIN, and must then only demonstrate that his use meets ARIN requirements, not that it was used as originally envisioned.
>> 
>> Also understand that ALL provision of Internet service which includes even the ephemeral exclusive use of an IP address includes the lease of that address. Try to draw a distinction between leasing just the address versus providing service and you'll very quickly find yourself falling down the rabbit hole. Do you have to provide IP transit with the lease? What if you provide transit but the customer doesn't use it, he uses the transit he buys from someone else? Is that good enough? What if the address lease is 24/7 but the transit is not (e.g. dialup)? What if the customer goes months without using the transit? And do you mean to tell me that all a registrant has to do to make his address lease kosher is offer the renter a 56k dialup along with it?
>> 
>> Sure, we can set a requirement that you can't lease addresses without providing transit. But that's such a ridiculously low bar to meet it's not worth wasting ARIN staff resources to evaluate it. Unless we make it such a high bar to meet that it actually impedes ordinary Internet business. Which would be even worse.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Bill Herrin
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> William Herrin
>> bill at herrin.us
>> https://bill.herrin.us/
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