[arin-ppml] [EXT] Re: Open Petition for ARIN-prop-266: BGP Hijacking is an ARIN Policy Violation

Thu May 2 22:56:14 EDT 2019

I think John already provided good information about this topic in the 
other message. What I have to say is that people believe in what 
normally makes them feel better, not necessarily in what it really is.

The RIR Registry has ways to enforce its policies and is backed for 
that, even if it happens to have to go to court. Not only lack of 
payment may revoke someone's space but also lack of justification.
People may not know that the RIR may ask anyone to justify their usage 
for the allocation if they believing one is stockpiling. And if the 
company fails to justify they will be revoked. It is simple as that. 
That's how it has always been, since the early days and is well 
documented and can be easily found by any technical person or by a judge 
analyzing a dispute upon this.

Doesn't really matter if there have been many or just few cases, but 
that there are rules that regulate this and that people previously 
agreed with them before taking any space from the RIR, so it is enough 
for a court to rule that RIR is correct in what is being done in such 
case. One can pay the most expensive lawyer and as a result will only 
buy him an extra house or car as the RIR is well covered on its action.

Fernando

On 02/05/2019 19:21, William Herrin wrote:
> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 8:45 AM Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com 
> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Not sure if this is really the main discussion but the point about
>     owning IP addresses was an example of something that is actually
>     the correct way it works, despite what happens in practice people
>     don't own it, cannot sell it (even if they believe they have the
>     absolute right to sell - excluding legacy cases). The fact is that
>     it CAN be revoked as it is not their property as something that
>     you buy.
>
> Fernando,
>
> Respectfully, you can repeat that claim as much as you want but until 
> ARIN actually tries and then survives a precedent-setting court 
> challenge it's just a theory and not, IMHO, a strong one,
>
> As we evaluate the proposal, legal risk is one of the things we'll 
> want to consider. If ARIN tries to enforce a revocation and loses, the 
> policies which permit them to reject registration changes land on much 
> shakier ground. ARIN could end up a pure registry without any policy 
> role despite what its members want. That's one reason the organization 
> has been so reluctant to try.
>
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 9:46 AM John Curran <jcurran at arin.net 
> <mailto:jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
> > ARIN has full operational control over the ARIN registry, so if you 
> believe that your issued IP address blocks are the rights to specific 
> entries in the ARIN registry, then you certainly don’t have any 
> property rights to same. ARIN does administer the ARIN registry in 
> accordance with the community-developed policies. and that enforcement 
> includes revocations of address space from parties for reasons other 
> than non-payment.
> >
> > If you believe that your “IP addresses” are something other than the 
> assigned rights to entries in the ARIN registry, then that’s fine - 
> many people in this world have interesting beliefs, but that doesn’t 
> affect in the least the ability of ARIN to administer its registry per 
> the community-developed policies.
>
> John,
>
> I own 199.33.224.0/23 <http://199.33.224.0/23>. That little corner of 
> the Internet address space is mine. If you think ARIN can change its 
> registration such that an ISP will no longer determine from looking up 
> the record that I have the exclusive right to those addresses on the 
> Internet and you think ARIN will survive a suit for tortious 
> interference and whatever else a lawyer and I can come up with as a 
> consequence, go right ahead and change it.
>
> I don't think you can. I'm very confident you won't. ARIN's history in 
> court is one of settlement after settlement, carefully avoiding having 
> the judge set a precedent even when policies had to be stretched to 
> breaking like they were for Microsoft/Nortel.
>
> Actions speak louder than words. ARIN's actions say it's not at all 
> confident it has the power you suggest here. Your actions have 
> credibility. I believe them.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
> -- 
> William Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com 
> <mailto:herrin at dirtside.com> bill at herrin.us <mailto:bill at herrin.us>
> Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
>
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