<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>I think John already provided good information about this topic
in the other message. What I have to say is that people believe in
what normally makes them feel better, not necessarily in what it
really is.</p>
<p>The RIR Registry has ways to enforce its policies and is backed
for that, even if it happens to have to go to court. Not only lack
of payment may revoke someone's space but also lack of
justification.<br>
People may not know that the RIR may ask anyone to justify their
usage for the allocation if they believing one is stockpiling. And
if the company fails to justify they will be revoked. It is simple
as that. That's how it has always been, since the early days and
is well documented and can be easily found by any technical person
or by a judge analyzing a dispute upon this.<br>
</p>
<p>Doesn't really matter if there have been many or just few cases,
but that there are rules that regulate this and that people
previously agreed with them before taking any space from the RIR,
so it is enough for a court to rule that RIR is correct in what is
being done in such case. One can pay the most expensive lawyer and
as a result will only buy him an extra house or car as the RIR is
well covered on its action.<br>
</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/05/2019 19:21, William Herrin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP-guGW-qJ3dyGf31-bOHN26yg57VOr35fz0e5upVe+Y1cX8xQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 8:45 AM Fernando
Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Not sure if this is really the main discussion but
the point about owning IP addresses was an example of
something that is actually the correct way it works,
despite what happens in practice people don't own it,
cannot sell it (even if they believe they have the
absolute right to sell - excluding legacy cases). The
fact is that it CAN be revoked as it is not their
property as something that you buy.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Fernando,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Respectfully, you can repeat that claim as much as you
want but until ARIN actually tries and then survives a
precedent-setting court challenge it's just a theory and
not, IMHO, a strong one,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As we evaluate the proposal, legal risk is one of the
things we'll want to consider. If ARIN tries to enforce a
revocation and loses, the policies which permit them to
reject registration changes land on much shakier ground.
ARIN could end up a pure registry without any policy role
despite what its members want. That's one reason the
organization has been so reluctant to try.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 9:46 AM John Curran <<a
href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">jcurran@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> ARIN has full operational control over the ARIN
registry, so if you believe that your issued IP address
blocks are the rights to specific entries in the ARIN
registry, then you certainly don’t have any property
rights to same. ARIN does administer the ARIN registry in
accordance with the community-developed policies. and that
enforcement includes revocations of address space from
parties for reasons other than non-payment.<br>
><br>
> If you believe that your “IP addresses” are something
other than the assigned rights to entries in the ARIN
registry, then that’s fine - many people in this world
have interesting beliefs, but that doesn’t affect in the
least the ability of ARIN to administer its registry per
the community-developed policies.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I own <a href="http://199.33.224.0/23"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">199.33.224.0/23</a>.
That little corner of the Internet address space is
mine. If you think ARIN can change its registration such
that an ISP will no longer determine from looking up the
record that I have the exclusive right to those
addresses on the Internet and you think ARIN will
survive a suit for tortious interference and whatever
else a lawyer and I can come up with as a consequence,
go right ahead and change it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't think you can. I'm very confident you won't.
ARIN's history in court is one of settlement after
settlement, carefully avoiding having the judge set a
precedent even when policies had to be stretched to
breaking like they were for Microsoft/Nortel.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Actions speak louder than words. ARIN's actions say
it's not at all confident it has the power you suggest
here. Your actions have credibility. I believe them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Bill Herrin</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="m_-5014600305711315642gmail_signature">William
Herrin ................ <a
href="mailto:herrin@dirtside.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">herrin@dirtside.com</a> <a
href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">bill@herrin.us</a><br>
Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <<a
href="http://www.dirtside.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.dirtside.com/</a>></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
ARIN-PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>
Please contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>