[arin-ppml] ARIN-2019-7: Elimination of the Waiting List (was:Re: Looking for final show of support on revised Advisory Council Recommendation Regarding NRPM 4.1.8. Unmet Requests

Sun Jun 23 07:03:53 EDT 2019

I do not see "dumping" them into 4.10 as wasting the addresses.

If the wait list was not around, I strongly suspect that 4.10 will become 
more popular, as the only other "Free" option for most.

I see 4.10 as a mini version of the wait list, that has MORE limits on it 
than the current wait list has, both in amount of addresses issued, and a 
requirement that the addresses be used as part of an effort to be using 
IPv6.

I agree with those that there will be an issue if the regulator of 
numbering resources like ARIN starts having a financial interest in the 
recovered numbering resources which will happen if the adoption of an 
auction process for recovered resources is adopted. Clearly this will 
cause additional issues in court that ARIN will have to deal with.

I also see no problem in ARIN using the power that it does have to promote 
the use of IPv6 in its adopted policies.

I would also not have a problem with a future adopted policy that requires 
an entity to hold IPv6 resources before any section 8 transfer, or section 
4 receipt of number resources.  At minimum, I see no issue with a 
requirement to receive IPv6 resources whenever IPv4 holdings are expanded 
by any means.  I might also go further to suggest a requirement that all 
resources issued be USED, and this would include both IPv4 and IPv6 
resources.  Addresses are meant to be used and not held unused like an 
investment.

If we ever get to the point of retiring IPv4, this market issue will 
disappear.  Since there is no shortage of IPv6 addresses, there is no 
marketplace for unused IPv6 addresses.  It is more like the IPv4 market 
was before the exhaustion of the free pool. Why pay someone to transfer 
addresses to you, when you can go directly to the source?

Albert Erdmann
Network Administrator
Paradise On Line Inc.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019, Mueller, Milton L wrote:

> I see that no one has answered the question I posed - if v4 resources 
> are reclaimed by ARIN how does it dispose of them efficiently if it does 
> not auction them off?
>
> Marty is correct that ARIN could refuse to accept returns. That that 
> would require the would-be returning party to auction them off itself. 
> That works. That's the only sensible modification I've seen in this 
> discussion.
>
> But what about reclamations or revocations? Basically, it's crickets. 
> Some people want to retain a waiting list (and thus ignore the obvious 
> fraud incentives generated by the current policy). Some people want to 
> waste the addresses by putting them into 4.10, another rather silly way 
> of avoiding the problem.
>
> Anyone who opposes this policy has to either defend the waiting list 
> that created the current problem, or fritter away valuable resources in 
> one way or another. Both options are worse than the entirely speculative 
> complaints against the proposed policy.
>
> Another thing to keep in mind is that the scale of this problem is 
> rather minor. Those predicting doom and gloom seem to be overlooking the 
> fact that the amount of reclaimed or revoked IPv4 numbers is a small and 
> shrinking factor in the overall picture.
>
> Dr. Milton L Mueller
> Georgia Institute of Technology
> School of Public Policy
>
>
>
>
> One prospective answer is to dump theminto
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> ARIN would be a competitor AND a regulator in the marketplace.
>
> I oppose the idea and support the idea of placing returned and revoked addresses in 4.10.
> Actually I proposed that as a new policy a few days ago but maybe it got lost or I filled out the template wrong.
>
> Regards,
> Mike Burns
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> On Behalf Of Roberts, Orin
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 1:01 PM
> To: ARIN-PPML List <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-2019-7: Elimination of the Waiting List (was:Re: Looking for final show of support on revised Advisory Council Recommendation Regarding NRPM 4.1.8. Unmet Requests
>
> IE ARIN would be a competitor in a marketplace for which it holds a monopoly.
>
>
>
>
> Orin Roberts
> IP PROVISIONING
> Bell Canada
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> On Behalf Of hostmaster at uneedus.com
> Sent: June-20-19 12:57 PM
> To: ARIN-PPML List <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: [EXT]Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-2019-7: Elimination of the Waiting List (was:Re: Looking for final show of support on revised Advisory Council Recommendation Regarding NRPM 4.1.8. Unmet Requests
>
> Oppose
>
> I have no problem with the idea of getting rid of the waiting list part of the proposal.
>
> I do have a problem with an auction, as I think it will cause lots of issues when ARIN revokes resources, because it certainly will be alleged that "ARIN did it for the money", as has already been discussed, and will make any legal action a lot more costly. The Board choosing to use auction proceeds for legal costs would be like pouring gasoline on a fire, and I note that the Board could choose to spend auction proceeds in this fashion, since how to spend the proceeds is totally under their control.
>
> Rather than an auction, I propose putting the returns in the 4.10 Dedicated IPv4 Block to Facilitate IPv6 Deployment.  This pool is limited to a /24 maximum.  This use would also promote IPv6 use.
>
> This would leave the marketplace as the only source of IPv4 addresses greater than a /24.  It would also effectively limit any "free" addresses to smaller players.
>
> If we are giving out "Free" addresses at ARIN, why not impose a condition that the addresses so provided be used as part of IPv6 deployment?
>
> Albert Erdmann
> Network Administrator
> Paradise On Line Inc.
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019, Alyssa Moore wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Trying to do a temperature check here. If you're following this
>> thread, please indicate whether you support or oppose this draft policy.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:42 AM David Farmer <farmer at umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2019 at 2:50 PM Mueller, Milton L <milton at gatech.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, I’ve read it, and here is my reaction:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This policy requires legal comment. ARIN’s Articles and Bylaws do
>>>> not specifically prohibit ARIN from monetizing returned or revoked
>>>> resources by selling those resources into the transfer market
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So point #1 is that this proposed policy does not violate any
>>>> articles or bylaws.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today, ARIN does not financially benefit in any material way from
>>>> such revocations. Adoption of this policy would for the first time
>>>> allow the party in a contested revocation situation to argue that
>>>> ARIN seeks to financially benefit. Avoiding that concern is also significant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am totally unimpressed with this argument. If ARIN revokes
>>>> addresses for nonpayment it is financially benefiting from the revocation is it not?
>>>> It is basically taking them back because it is not getting paid.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If ARIN “gets paid” by selling the numbers into the transfer market
>>>> what is the difference exactly?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Referring to the waiting list policy, the Draft Policy says, "this
>>> policy provides valuable number resources essentially for free".
>>>
>>> Yes, ARIN currently financially benefits, but currently, that benefit
>>> is at a level of cost recovery, "essentially for free" as stated above.
>>> Whereas, if ARIN were to dispose of resources using the market, the
>>> level of financial benefit is likely to be orders of magnitude larger.
>>> Furthermore, if this wasn't the case, then the impact on the market
>>> and the potential for fraud supposedly created by the waiting list,
>>> that the draft policy proposes to mitigate, wouldn't exist in the first place.
>>>
>>> In short, "what is the difference", probably, several orders of
>>> magnitude in the level of financial benefit involved. Where the
>>> financial motivations from simple "cost recovery" can probably be
>>> summarily dismissed by the court. Whereas the potential financial
>>> motivations, that one might even call a windfall, from market-based
>>> transactions probably at least needs to be examined and evaluated by
>>> the court, and probably wouldn't be summarily dismissed. The outcome
>>> of the two situations might be the same in the end, but the level of
>>> effort involved defending and the level of risk of an adverse ruling, are not the same at all.
>>>
>>> More generally, ARIN participating in the market seems distasteful
>>> and counter to its overall mission, but doesn't directly violate its
>>> Articles and Bylaws.
>>>
>>> That said that doesn't mean ARIN can't implement the policy, but
>>> these risks need to be evaluated when compared to other alternatives
>>> being considered, along with the possible benefits this policy could have as well.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ===============================================
>>> David Farmer               Email:farmer at umn.edu
>>> Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information
>>> Technology University of Minnesota
>>> 2218 University Ave SE        Phone: 612-626-0815
>>> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029   Cell: 612-812-9952
>>> ===============================================
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARIN-PPML
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>>
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