[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New POC Validation Upon Reassignment

Owen DeLong owen at delong.com
Thu Nov 30 13:03:11 EST 2017


Can we please take this rat-hole out of the policy discussion and move it to
an appropriate list? Fees are _NOT_ the purview of the PPML or the ARIN PDP.

Owen

> On Nov 30, 2017, at 08:51 , Andrew Bagrin <abagrin at omninet.io> wrote:
> 
> That's why a suggested a fee, to make that space find us instead of us
> finding it.
> I can see this is not really of interest and the bigger interest is to
> launch v6 and forget about v4, so I'll stick to the plan.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hostmaster at uneedus.com [mailto:hostmaster at uneedus.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 11:46 AM
> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Cc: Andrew Bagrin <abagrin at omninet.io>
> Subject: RE: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New POC
> Validation Upon Reassignment
> 
> Private space is a valid use, as this is one of the only ways to ensure
> uniqueness.  Look at the US Postal Service as an example of this.  They have
> gobs of mail sorting machines on their class A, none of which is exposed to
> the internet.  Their public facing services are also in the lower portion of
> this block, so they have both uses.
> 
> If you are not using it, and there are no future plans for it, is is quite
> likely that the company will eventually be contacted by a broker regarding
> the sale or lease of the space.  I suspect that most of the contacts by
> brokers are initially made by the broker, to those in charge of possible
> space that might be available.  Most of their work is trying to track down
> possible available space.  Without available space, the broker really does
> not have a product to offer, since the buyer is the source of the money for
> both the buyer and the broker's commission.
> 
> You are right that this is not likely the only available network.  Even so,
> we will never find enough IPv4 space to cover demand.  As the available
> blocks get smaller, it becomes an even more cost intense job.
> 
> Albert Erdmann
> Network Administrator
> Paradise On Line Inc.
> 
> 
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2017, Andrew Bagrin wrote:
> 
>> The mythical space is 168.86.0.0/16 direct assignment NATIO-42
>> https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-168-86-0-0-1/pft?s=168.86.1.1
>> I got a hold of it when we acquire United Artists. They used it as
>> private space.
>> I just did a  ping sweep and got no replies.   Nothing on BGP dig either.
>> 
>> I have a hard time believing they are the only ones.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ARIN-PPML [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
>> hostmaster at uneedus.com
>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:08 AM
>> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New POC
>> Validation Upon Reassignment
>> 
>> Unless the space is legacy, I do not see how space can remain open for
>> 15 years on autopilot, as someone must be paying the ARIN bill.
>> 
>> Even under the original policies, review of use of IPv4 space only
>> comes up in the context of requesting more space from ARIN.  In light
>> of the marketability of unused space, eventually someone from that org
>> will eventually either use/lease/sell the space, and the tighter
>> things go, the more likely this will happen.  It is very unlikely
>> anyone will just return the space, since it now has value.
>> 
>> This has been discussed before.  The amount of resources that would be
>> required at ARIN to recover space from orgs that no longer exist far
>> exceed the current value of the space recovered.  The mythical class B
>> we are discussing here is in fact getting quite rare, and the brokers
>> are getting better at tracking these down and getting them back to use.
>> 
>> In fact, it looks like the bulk of the legacy space with bad contacts
>> are approaching the /22 to /24 level, not really worth the effort,
>> considering that we all know the basic math is always against continued
>> use of IPv4.
>> That math being the simple fact that the total number of possible IPv4
>> addresses is much less than the world population.
>> 
>> At some point, we will pass a hump in IPv6 adoption, and this will
>> drive us toward IPv6 becoming the main protocol on the worldwide
>> internet.  I think at that point, that will become the peak of IPv4
>> value.  Once IPv6 becomes the main protocol, the value of IPv4 addresses
>> will fall like a rock.
>> 
>> Albert Erdmann
>> Network Administrator
>> Paradise On Line Inc.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2017, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> And I will point out that the entire point of validating POCs is to
>>> discover things like /16's that haven't been used for 15 years.
>>> 
>>> It would seem to me that ARIN staff vacillates between loving and
>>> hating section 3.6 of the NRPM.  Some years they see any attempt at
>>> housecleaning stale assignments that are just on autopilot (like this
>>> mythical /16 - I love how when people cite these examples they never
>>> state the actual numbers - hello!) as an obstacle to increased IPv6
>>> adoption so they hate it and undercut it.   Other years they desperately
>>> need to get some IPv4 for someone very big and powerful with maybe a
>>> whole lot of guns and rocket launchers and such and they love this
>>> section since it allows them to scrape together some IPv4 for a need.
>>> 
>>> Ted
>>> 
>>> On 11/27/2017 4:24 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>>> Before we travel too far down this branch of discussion, I’d like to
>>>> point out that fees are not within the realm of ARIN policy debate
>>>> and therefore aren’t really an appropriate topic for this list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you’d like to discuss such a fee, there is arin-discuss (open to
>>>> Members/Staff/Board/AC) where fee discussions are appropriate.
>>>> 
>>>> Alternatively, there is also the ARIN Consultation and Suggestion
>>>> Process (ACSP) available via the Participate tab on the ARIN web site.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Owen
>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 27, 2017, at 13:08 , Steven Ryerse
>>>>> <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com
>>>>> <mailto:SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don’t see how you can go back and start charging Legacy holders
>>>>> that obtained their blocks before ARIN was created. You would have
>>>>> to charge big companies like AT&T & IBM and you would have to
>>>>> somehow charge the Dept. of Defense and so forth to make it fair to
>>>>> everyone.
>>>>> Seems like that ship sailed long ago.
>>>>> /Steven Ryerse/
>>>>> /President/
>>>>> /100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338/
>>>>> /770.656.1460 - Cell/
>>>>> /770.399.9099 - Office/
>>>>> /770.392.0076 - Fax/
>>>>> <image001.jpg>℠Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>>>>> ^Conquering Complex Networks ^℠ ^
>>>>> *From:*ARIN-PPML [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net]*On Behalf
>>>>> Of*Roberts, Orin *Sent:*Monday, November 27, 2017 3:59 PM
>>>>> *To:*Andrew Bagrin <abagrin at omninet.io <mailto:abagrin at omninet.io>>
>>>>> *Cc:*ARIN-PPML List <arin-ppml at arin.net
>>>>> <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New
>>>>> POC Validation Upon Reassignment I see obstacles but increased fees
>>>>> would lead to greater efficiency in
>>>>> IPv4 assignments and usage or at the very least aid in the
>>>>> migration to IPv6.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. Charging a monthly fee (or higher monthly fee), means increased
>>>>>    costs to end-users for whatever services said company provides.
>>>>> 2. ISP’s with VERY LARGE inventory of IPs would lobby against such a
>>>>>    proposal. A typical ISP would have several /16’s in reservation -
>>>>>    capacity planning.
>>>>> 3. What’s to stop companies from doing what they do now? – Reassign
>>>>>    or Reallocate unused inventory (ie trade and monetize via brokers).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Orin Roberts
>>>>> *From:*ARIN-PPML [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net]*On Behalf
>>>>> Of*Andrew Bagrin
>>>>> *Sent:*November-27-17 3:35 PM
>>>>> *To:*Austin Murkland <austin.murkland at qscend.com
>>>>> <mailto:austin.murkland at qscend.com>>; Andre Dalle <adalle at ncf.ca
>>>>> <mailto:adalle at ncf.ca>> *Cc:*ARIN-PPML List <arin-ppml at arin.net
>>>>> <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New
>>>>> POC Validation Upon Reassignment I’d also like to see a $100
>>>>> monthly fee per IPv4 /24 currently assigned.
>>>>> I held onto a /16 at a previous company, just because it was cool
>>>>> but had no use for it. I checked recently and it is still assigned
>>>>> to the same company and not being used 15 years later.
>>>>> By adding a $25k monthly fee, they would quickly return the block.
>>>>> Currently we have to pay brokers or sellers to acquire more IPv4
>>>>> space. I would rather pay ARIN which could go to better funding the
>>>>> organization.
>>>>> *From:*ARIN-PPML [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
>>>>> <mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>]*On Behalf Of*Austin Murkland
>>>>> *Sent:*Monday, November 27, 2017 3:26 PM *To:*Andre Dalle
>>>>> <adalle at ncf.ca <mailto:adalle at ncf.ca>> *Cc:*ARIN-PPML List
>>>>> <arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New
>>>>> POC Validation Upon Reassignment Also support this On Wed, Nov 22,
>>>>> 2017 at 6:20 PM, Andre Dalle <adalle at ncf.ca <mailto:adalle at ncf.ca>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>    All my IPv4 space is reassigned, and I discovered last year that
>>>>>    not all of it - from the same carrier - is properly associated
>>>>>    with us.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Upstream created a POC for us (even though we were an existing
>>>>>    customer with multiple reassignments), and it's been sluggish
>>>>>    getting them to
>>>>>    sort it out. We have rDNS, so most abuse reporting still finds us,
>>>>>    but some abuse mechanisms out there rely on POC info.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    So I think this is necessary. +100 from here as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    ----
>>>>>    André Dalle
>>>>>    Systems Administrator
>>>>>    National Capital FreeNet [http://www.ncf.ca
>>>>> <http://www.ncf.ca/>]
>>>>> 
>>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>    From: "Joe Provo" <ppml at rsuc.gweep.net
>>>>> <mailto:ppml at rsuc.gweep.net>>
>>>>>    To: "ARIN-PPML List" <arin-ppml at arin.net
>>>>> <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
>>>>>    Sent: Wednesday, 22 November, 2017 11:01:59
>>>>>    Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New
>>>>>    POC Validation Upon Reassignment
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 06:13:46PM -0500, David Huberman wrote:
>>>>>> Thank you Scott. As the co-author, I very much recognize this
>>>>>> proposal text is a ???first draft???. Working with my co-author
>>>>>> Jason Schiller, and having solicited feedback from the AC, this
>>>>>> proposal was submitted to solve the general problem. My hope was
>>>>>> the mechanics would be looked at critically by the community
>>>>> during
>>>>>> the PDP, and we would work together to improve them.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    With my personal hat on I'm very happy to see this getting
>>>>>    to discussion. +100 for intent and I look forward to useful
>>>>>    language suggestions here.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    --
>>>>>    Posted from my personal account - see X-Disclaimer header.
>>>>>    Joe Provo / Gweep / Earthling
>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>    PPML
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>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> PPML
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
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