[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 128, Issue 7

[Mike Burns]

Hi McTim,

https://labs.ripe.net/Members/wilhelm/ipv4-transfers-in-the-ripe-ncc-service-region

That RIPE labs report is not evidence of the speculation we are considering in the context of the current policy.
You are opposing this policy because you think it will enable/encourage speculation in the transfer market.
This policy is related to transfers, not to over-allocations made under the old regime.

This particular country's addresses were not purchased on the transfer market. They were accumulated prior to exhaust under the then-extant needs-based allocations policies, aka longstanding policies, aka proper stewardship. And then (somewhat) after exhaust via gaming the "/22 for new ISPs" rule at RIPE.

This is not evidence of speculation on the transfer market, it is merely the evidence that market forces act on this resource already. They can induce corruption, rules-avoidance, oh yes indeed they can.
But as I sort of said, that genie is out of the bottle.  
We should be attentive related to evidence of this kind of speculation involving allocations from the final free pool in AFRINIC, I am sure we both agree on that.

Changing the rules about needs-testing paid transfers is not going to enable/encourage or disable/discourage profit and rent-seeking.  Profit and rent-seeking is allowed under current policy and will happen regardless of policy anyway.
That won't be significantly changed by maintaining needs tests for ARIN transfers.

After all, if you can't justify, become a RIPE member and buy RIPE addresses. It's as simple as that.
Anybody can do it, plus they get a /22 for their trouble!  And then they can buy RIPE addresses without demonstrating need.
So what is the point of retaining this needs test in the current environment?

We can't stop market forces from acting on IPv4 addresses, but we should understand that these forces can also induce the movement of unused resources into productive use. In fact that is the natural thing. We have brokered the sale of so many blocks which were unused for decades. This is evidence of this positive effect of the market.

Now since I have admitted that market forces can lead to corruption and rules-avoidance, can you acknowledge that bringing dusty old blocks back into productive use is a positive effect of the market?  
One ideologue to another ? ;-)

Anyway I guess we both understand each other's positions by now, so I will just register my support for the policy and step off the soapbox.

Regards,
Mike

PS made it to the end without mentioning Whois accuracy!




-----Original Message-----
From: McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 12:17 PM
To: Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com>
Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 128, Issue 7

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
> The existence of your company and other "brokers" isn't evidence 
> enough that people want to make money solely by buying and selling v4 resources?
>
> Methinks you fail to see the forest for the trees!
>
> Regards,
>
> McTim
>
>> Hi McTim,
>
> I'm really not sure what you are saying above, but actually the 
> existence of brokers like me is in fact evidence that people want to 
> make money solely by buying and selling IPv4 addresses.  





Of course, there has been speculation going on for years in the EU.

Look at the top ten by country table near the bottom of this page:

https://labs.ripe.net/Members/wilhelm/ipv4-transfers-in-the-ripe-ncc-service-region

and ask yourself why one small country punches above its weight in exported v4.

While these PI blocks were acquired within policy, it is clear that they were obtained for later resale, which is definition #2 below:

spec·u·la·tion
ˌspekyəˈlāSH(ə)n/
noun

1.
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
"there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"
2.
investment in stocks, property, or other ventures in the hope of gain but with the risk of loss.
"the company's move into property speculation"


So I am not in favor of removing restrictions on bad behaviour just because some have engaged in said behaviour in other regions.  I am not saying this is fraudulent behaviour, but certainly speculative in nature and not in the best interests of the Internet community.  That of course is my ideology showing, and I make no bones about it.

I am a big fan of accuracy in public network information databases, which is why I authored "no reverse without assignment" in the AFRINIC region, so the whole "you don't care about registry accuracy' argument doesn't fly with me.


--
Cheers,

McTim