[arin-ppml] general question

Rudolph Daniel rudi.daniel at gmail.com
Fri Jun 5 12:58:04 EDT 2015


Relating to rights and property of IP numbers.

Does the proposed IANA transition change the landscape or has potential to
change the current status?

RD
On Jun 5, 2015 12:52 PM, <arin-ppml-request at arin.net> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: On IPv4 free pool runout and transfer policy requirements
      for the ARIN region (William Herrin)
   2. Re: ARIN-PPML 2015-2 (Richard J. Letts)
   3. Re: On IPv4 free pool runout and transfer policy  requirements
      for the ARIN region (Mike Burns)
   4. Re: ARIN-PPML 2015-2 (William Herrin)
   5. Re: On IPv4 free pool runout and transfer policy requirements
      for the ARIN region (William Herrin)


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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 12:01:09 -0400
From: William Herrin <bill at herrin.us>
To: Lu Heng <h.lu at anytimechinese.com>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net List" <arin-ppml at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] On IPv4 free pool runout and transfer policy
        requirements for the ARIN region
Message-ID:
        <CAP-guGU4A_ioQOchu-UYt2+G-vitMawa7T0cp1FgeULDaSZ_=A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Lu Heng <h.lu at anytimechinese.com> wrote:
> Remove need based potentially unify a global transfer policy since APNIC
and
> RIPE has already done so.

Hi Lu,

A globally coordinated policy which also constrained subregistries to
facilitate transfers in accordance with the policy might be
worthwhile. We'd have to take care not to pretend that ARIN and APNIC
work the same way: APNIC cedes much of its registry operation to
National Internet Registries, non-operating entities whose role is to
be miniature APNICs. ARIN has subregistries in little more than name.
ISPs are operating entities which apply the allocated IP addresses to
_their_ operations with the full expectation that the customer holds
addresses only so long as they purchase the attached network service.

Put simply: APNIC NIRs would have to comply with any global transfer
policy as well even as ARIN ISPs are understood to be the direct
customer instead.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



--
William Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com  bill at herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>


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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 16:22:58 +0000
From: "Richard J. Letts" <rjletts at uw.edu>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net" <arin-ppml at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
Message-ID:
        <
SN1PR08MB18232722966F578320CAF73FC0B20 at SN1PR08MB1823.namprd08.prod.outlook.com
>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

If that is the case, then ARIN/We should update inter-RIR policies to only
allow transfers to registries that have substantially similar transfer
policies. This does not require complete blobal co-ordination, but it will
establish areas where co-operating RIRs get access to free markets and
uncooperative RIRs do not.

If target registry does not allow transfers out of their RIR then
reject transfer to target registry
If target registry allows transfers out of their RIR to any other registry
that does not allow transfers out of their RIR then
reject transfer to target registry
else
                accept the transfer

Otherwise you have the situation where limited addresses cannot be
transferred across border, leading to an imperfect market which (long-term)
affects the rest of the world?s ability to function using IPv4 (which will
be significant for a while yet)

In the meantime, making it harder to move recently acquired addresses to a
different RIR acts as a brake on the ability to arbitrage or move
relatively recently acquired addresses to a registry with restrictive
market policies.

Richard Letts

From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On
Behalf Of Rocky
Sent: 4 June 2015 6:24 PM
To: bill at herrin.us
Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2

Hi William,

Same as the CNNIC,   KRNIC, VINNIC, IDNIC and NIXI ( Indian NIR) do not
allow to transfer their IPv4 addresses out of their NIRs.


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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 12:39:42 -0400
From: "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com>
To: "'William Herrin'" <bill at herrin.us>, "'Lu Heng'"
        <h.lu at anytimechinese.com>
Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] On IPv4 free pool runout and transfer policy
        requirements for the ARIN region
Message-ID: <027201d09fae$3920ef50$ab62cdf0$@iptrading.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"


Put simply: APNIC NIRs would have to comply with any global transfer policy
as well even as ARIN ISPs are understood to be the direct customer instead.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

Hi Bill,

What about when the NIR and RIR allow for outgoing transfers but a specific
country makes it illegal for their citizens to do this?
Do we hold inter-regional transfer policy hostage to any particular
country's law?
I will note that although RIPE allows transfers, country-based sanctions
prevent those transfers to Iranian organizations.

These are untested waters. The relationship between RIRs and NIRs insofar as
policy compliance is probably a matter of those RIR's individual policies.
Or is the NIR concept elucidated in some global document?

Is it good enough that at the APNIC level we have reciprocity?

I believe that it is not required for Chinese firms to hold all their
addresses within CNNIC, rather some can be held directly in APNIC accounts.
So what if a Chinese buyer opened an APNIC account and purchased
inter-regionally, then transferred from APNIC to CNNIC under their existing
policies?
Or just left the accounts registered in APNIC?

Regards,
Mike




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 12:41:31 -0400
From: William Herrin <bill at herrin.us>
To: "Richard J. Letts" <rjletts at uw.edu>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net" <arin-ppml at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
Message-ID:
        <CAP-guGV6GO0coNEjnogxgx9jZ+Mmyj03=hRdQM46_D476U2LiA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Richard J. Letts <rjletts at uw.edu> wrote:
> If that is the case, then ARIN/We should update inter-RIR policies to only
> allow transfers to registries that have substantially similar transfer
> policies.

Hi Richard,

The plain language of the transfer policies already requires that.
It's an enforcement problem: ARIN is permitting transfers anyway. I
don't know what we can do about it save wagging fingers at John
Curran.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com  bill at herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 12:51:26 -0400
From: William Herrin <bill at herrin.us>
To: Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net" <arin-ppml at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] On IPv4 free pool runout and transfer policy
        requirements for the ARIN region
Message-ID:
        <CAP-guGX9nz_H4bgK6G5jMi2SqP9zC8JJcp2JGXx1XyFEet9niw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
>> Put simply: APNIC NIRs would have to comply with any global transfer
policy
>> as well even as ARIN ISPs are understood to be the direct customer
instead.
>
> What about when the NIR and RIR allow for outgoing transfers but a
specific
> country makes it illegal for their citizens to do this?

Hi Mike,

I don't see a useful distinction between the two, save that if the
registry serves a wider community than the jurisdiction which prevents
transfers, the registry might achieve compliance by preventing
transfers into the jurisdiction.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



--
William Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com  bill at herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>


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