[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 120, Issue 4
Rocky
rockymm8 at gmail.com
Mon Jun 1 20:35:52 EDT 2015
Hi William,
Answers to your questions about CNNIC rules.
It is illegal for transferring CNNIC IPv4 out of China mainland and CNNIC will not allow Microsoft to transfer its IPs in CNNIC accounts out of China mainland. Furthermore, currently the new Government rules also does not allow APNIC IPv4 whose registration location is CN ( China mainland) to be transferred out of China mainland.
Before we start to discuss about this 2015-02, your guys should know that Microsoft’s local Chinese business partner for its Azure is 21vianet and Amazon’s local business partner is Chinanetcenter (网宿）. You can easily to do the goggle search to find out.
This is what Microsoft had done:
Microsoft had paid expensive money to have its purchased IPs to be transferred into China; Meanwhile apply for plenty of free IPs from ARIN free pools ( your guys can check ARIN database to find out ).
ipv4|167.189.0.0/16|TNT Australia Pty Ltd|AU|APNIC|19930916|China Internet Network Information Center/CHINA-21VIANET|CN|APNIC|20140114
Two CNNIC accounts ( where holding most of 21vianet’s IPs addresses) controlled by 21Vianet ( Chinese name: 世纪互联 Listed in the US stock market and they also have several other CNNIC accounts too, where Xiaomi becomes one of its main shareholders now) are:
CHINA-21VIANET
CHINA-ABITCOOL
ipv4|167.220.224.0/19|American Registry for Internet Numbers/MOPL|AP|ARIN|20140109|Microsoft Singapore Pte. Ltd.|SG|APNIC|20140408
ipv4|139.217.0.0/16|Dodo Australia|AU|APNIC|20110308|Microsoft Singapore Pte. Ltd.|SG|APNIC|20140428
ipv4|139.219.0.0/16|Dodo Australia|AU|APNIC|20110308|Microsoft Singapore Pte. Ltd.|SG|APNIC|20140428
ipv4|139.217.0.0/16|Microsoft Singapore Pte. Ltd.|SG|APNIC|20110308|China Internet Network Information Center/MCCL-CHN|CN|APNIC|20140609
ipv4|139.219.0.0/16|Microsoft Singapore Pte. Ltd.|SG|APNIC|20110308|China Internet Network Information Center/MCCL-CHN|CN|APNIC|20140609
Compared with what Amazon had done:
Amazon had bought more IPs than Microsoft. nearly a /8 from Merck and plenty from Dupont and other sources and their deal’s unit price is cheaper than Microsoft’s, cos of their large purchase amount.
ipv4|54.222.0.0/15|American Registry for Internet Numbers/MERCK2|AP|ARIN|19920317|Amazon Connection Technology Services (Beijing) Co., LTD|CN|APNIC|20130408
ipv4|54.222.0.0/15|Amazon Connection Technology Services (Beijing) Co., LTD|CN|APNIC|19920317|China Internet Network Information Center/CHINANETCENTER|CN|APNIC|20140219
Considering the anti-flip rules in the ARIN transfer policy: Amazon abides by the ARIN policy and transfer parts of purchased IPs into China. However,Microsoft tries to transfer its free applied IPs from ARIN free pools into China.
Both of those giants have taken the advantage of power,money and size to acquire lots of free IPs from ARIN free pools where we can see the smaller members suffer quite a lot and even hard to acquire a /24.
Compared with Amazon, Microsoft tries to find out a way to transfer the free ARIN IPs out of ARIN into China. Apparently, Microsoft has taken advantage of the ARIN policy where they tell untruthful information to ARIN for apply for free IPs to be used in ARIN then several months later they tries to transfer the Ips out of ARIN by using excuses like: plans changes etc.
David like the Elvis who used to work in RIRs know the policy better than anyone else in the community and I think david is in a hurry to achieve something to verify that his is worthy of the money paid by Microsoft to hire him to do his jobs( getting as many free IPs as possible for Microsoft).
Furthermore more info about 21vianet.
Compared with what 21vianet had done:
21vianet knows that its business partner Microsoft had paid expensive money to buy that 167.189.0.0/16 and they knows the internal Chinese IP market is quite lot cheaper than the ARIN market, So they bought quite lots of cheaper IPs from Seehu.
118.195.0.0/17; 59.191.0.0/17; 118.30.0.0/16; 123.61.0.0/16 etc has been transferred from seehu to 21vianet on Feb 2014. Your guys cannot see this transfer in the APNIC public transfer log due to three reasons:
1. CNNIC does lots of off-book transfers ( if you dig more, you will find who are the beneficial parties…)
2. Seehu told APNIC this was a M/A transfer. However, this is not truth and the truth is that this is a normal transfer where Seehu sold its leased IPs for profit.
3. APNIC does not list M/A transfer in its public transfer log.
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 3:33 AM, arin-ppml-request at arin.net wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: ARIN-PPML 2015-2 (William Herrin)
> 2. Re: ARIN-PPML 2015-2 (David Huberman)
> 3. Re: ARIN-PPML 2015-2 (John Curran)
> 4. Re: ARIN-PPML 2015-2 (David Huberman)
> 5. Re: ARIN-PPML 2015-2 (John Curran)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 14:50:05 -0400
> From: William Herrin <bill at herrin.us (mailto:bill at herrin.us)>
> To: Matthew Kaufman <matthew at matthew.at (mailto:matthew at matthew.at)>
> Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)" <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>, Rudolph Daniel
> <rudi.daniel at gmail.com (mailto:rudi.daniel at gmail.com)>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
> Message-ID:
> <CAP-guGV6RCKXW9r2QRibgJAdXZO2nYwKXc-bLnZeXcbcWw0bAg at mail.gmail.com (mailto:CAP-guGV6RCKXW9r2QRibgJAdXZO2nYwKXc-bLnZeXcbcWw0bAg at mail.gmail.com)>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew at matthew.at (mailto:matthew at matthew.at)> wrote:
> > Anti-flip shouldn't matter the moment there's no free pool left to allocate
> > from.
> >
>
>
> Hi Matthew,
>
> That's only true if everybody is playing by the same rules. I asked,
> but I still haven't heard someone explain the CNNIC rules and process
> that facilitate IPv4 addresses transferring out of China and over to
> North America. Reciprocity is something of a requirement for free
> trade.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 7:41 AM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net (mailto:jcurran at arin.net)> wrote:
> > On May 31, 2015, at 10:13 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew at matthew.at (mailto:matthew at matthew.at)> wrote:
> > > I will note that there's really no stopping addresses from being used anywhere by anyone?
> >
> >
> > That is correct; the transfers are of rights applicable to specific address blocks in the
> > Internet Numbers Registry system - contrary to the assertions of some, these are not
> > rights to be in anyone?s routers or in the routing table, etc.
> >
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> That duplicitous statement has been bantered about since the beginning
> of the RIRs. The exact statement is technically accurate but falls
> well short of truthful. It implies a total disconnect between
> registration and routing which is patently false.
>
> A registration is most emphatically intended to confer upon the
> registrant the right to -exclude- others' use of those numbers within
> the routing infrastructure on the public Internet. That's what the
> address registries and registrations are for. And sufficient torts in
> the common law back it up.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
> --
> William Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com (mailto:herrin at dirtside.com) bill at herrin.us (mailto:bill at herrin.us)
> Owner, Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 19:00:02 +0000
> From: David Huberman <David.Huberman at microsoft.com (mailto:David.Huberman at microsoft.com)>
> To: William Herrin <bill at herrin.us (mailto:bill at herrin.us)>, Matthew Kaufman
> <matthew at matthew.at (mailto:matthew at matthew.at)>
> Cc: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel at gmail.com (mailto:rudi.daniel at gmail.com)>, "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)"
> <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
> Message-ID:
> <DM2PR03MB39850A9E2B9EAD816F596E49BB60 at DM2PR03MB398.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (mailto:DM2PR03MB39850A9E2B9EAD816F596E49BB60 at DM2PR03MB398.namprd03.prod.outlook.com)>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> > That's only true if everybody is playing by the same rules. I asked, but I still
> > haven't heard someone explain the CNNIC rules and process that facilitate
> > IPv4 addresses transferring out of China and over to North America.
> > Reciprocity is something of a requirement for free trade.
> >
>
>
> I didn't see this question. Our experience has been we can move space from CNNIC to APNIC, and then APNIC has reciprocity with ARIN. So CNNIC has reciprocity with ARIN via APNIC (just like ARIN to CNNIC has to first go through APNIC).
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 19:16:40 +0000
> From: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net (mailto:jcurran at arin.net)>
> To: Matthew Kaufman <matthew at matthew.at (mailto:matthew at matthew.at)>
> Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)" <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
> Message-ID: <A87E1664-B0D2-4168-A586-636D79914D6E at arin.net (mailto:A87E1664-B0D2-4168-A586-636D79914D6E at arin.net)>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> On Jun 1, 2015, at 2:28 PM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
>
> On Jun 1, 2015, at 1:54 PM, Matthew Kaufman <matthew at matthew.at<mailto:matthew at matthew.at>> wrote:
> ...
> I don't believe that ARIN or any other registry has any power to prevent me from using any integers I want in my own routers and network.
>
> Matthew
>
> I fully agree, but you might want to compare notes with David, as he seems to have
> created rights to address blocks listed within routing tables, rather than address
> holders having rights to address block entries in the Internet Numbers Registry?
>
> For avoidance of doubt about the rights referenced above, both the RSA and LRSA
> make clear that address holders have the following rights -
>
> "ARIN shall (i) provide the Services to Holder in accordance with the Service Terms and (ii) grant to Holder the following specified rights:
> (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database;
> (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database; and
> (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number Resources pursuant to the Policies.?
>
> There?s no doubt that ARIN can provide to these rights to the address holder, but it?s worth
> noting that the specified 'right to use? is clearly within respect to ARIN database, not any
> right that is predicated upon (or directly applicable to) the routing tables of ISPs globally.
>
> The Internet number registry system is joint activity that provides benefits for those who
> voluntarily participate therein - you?re not obligated in the least to make use of it, you can
> include any IP address block you want in your routing tables, but don?t be surprised if others
> expect you to participate in the system. A nice slide deck that summarizes this voluntary
> nature is here: http://www.ptc.org/ptc14/images/papers/upload/Presentation_TS9_ConradDavid.pdf
>
> FYI,
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> ARIN
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 19:21:13 +0000
> From: David Huberman <David.Huberman at microsoft.com (mailto:David.Huberman at microsoft.com)>
> To: David Huberman <David.Huberman at microsoft.com (mailto:David.Huberman at microsoft.com)>, William Herrin
> <bill at herrin.us (mailto:bill at herrin.us)>, Matthew Kaufman <matthew at matthew.at (mailto:matthew at matthew.at)>
> Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)" <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>, Rudolph Daniel
> <rudi.daniel at gmail.com (mailto:rudi.daniel at gmail.com)>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
> Message-ID:
> <DM2PR03MB39846AD8349D3E0FDD38BB09BB60 at DM2PR03MB398.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (mailto:DM2PR03MB39846AD8349D3E0FDD38BB09BB60 at DM2PR03MB398.namprd03.prod.outlook.com)>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I would like to retract this statement I made. I was challenged off-list. I went and looked through our history, and I appear to be mistaken. We did not move space out of CNNIC. And apparently, there is no reciprocity -- CNNIC cannot be moved to APNIC.
>
> Apologies for the errant statement.
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On
> > Behalf Of David Huberman
> > Sent: Monday, June 1, 2015 12:00 PM
> > To: William Herrin; Matthew Kaufman
> > Cc: Rudolph Daniel; arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)
> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
> >
> > > That's only true if everybody is playing by the same rules. I asked,
> > > but I still haven't heard someone explain the CNNIC rules and process
> > > that facilitate
> > > IPv4 addresses transferring out of China and over to North America.
> > > Reciprocity is something of a requirement for free trade.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I didn't see this question. Our experience has been we can move space from
> > CNNIC to APNIC, and then APNIC has reciprocity with ARIN. So CNNIC has
> > reciprocity with ARIN via APNIC (just like ARIN to CNNIC has to first go
> > through APNIC).
> > _______________________________________________
> > PPML
> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 19:33:00 +0000
> From: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net (mailto:jcurran at arin.net)>
> To: BIll Herrin <bill at herrin.us (mailto:bill at herrin.us)>
> Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)" <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>, Rudolph Daniel
> <rudi.daniel at gmail.com (mailto:rudi.daniel at gmail.com)>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
> Message-ID: <7473364A-BB26-4A1A-A9CB-943FC5746AC9 at corp.arin.net (mailto:7473364A-BB26-4A1A-A9CB-943FC5746AC9 at corp.arin.net)>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Jun 1, 2015, at 2:50 PM, William Herrin <bill at herrin.us<mailto:bill at herrin.us>> wrote:
> ...
> A registration is most emphatically intended to confer upon the
> registrant the right to -exclude- others' use of those numbers within
> the routing infrastructure on the public Internet.
>
> Bill -
>
> if you think that there?s a legal obligation on the ISPs to follow the registry,
> then please provide a citation... As I noted, we could indeed create such
> an obligation as part of the registry services agreement, but it is rather
> unclear why that would be desirable (and would significantly change the
> voluntary cooperative nature of the system.)
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> ARIN
>
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