[arin-ppml] 2014-2 8.4 Anti-flip Language

[Owen DeLong]

On Feb 24, 2014, at 5:23 PM, George Herbert <george.herbert at gmail.com> wrote:

> I object to the viewpoint that we should use policy to confuse things so that IPv6 is more attractive sooner.  There are systemic risks with IPv4 runout and inflexibility prior to IPv6 being fully baked in the works-for-everyone sense.  The time to have made those adjustments was 2008 or so, not now.

I don’t believe that is what Bill suggested. I believe he stated that mucking with policy to make the market artificially attractive would harm the transition process.

> If we're going to go back to recent history for economic lessons, the Fed letting Lehman Brothers crash is a good one.  They were trying to make a couple of points, too, but the collateral damage nearly caused a depression…

IMHO, failing to let a number of the others collapse and not dismantling those that were propped up was the bigger mistake.

Owen

> 
> 
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 5:14 PM, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
> This, too.
> 
> Owen
> 
> On Feb 24, 2014, at 6:33 AM, Bill Darte <billdarte at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'll not answer for Owen, but your question prompts me to say that the transfer market is not a goodness.  It was, in my mind, a reasonable yet distasteful stop gap on the way toward a once again more unified protocol environment...to wit.. IPv6.
>> 
>> My market theory suggest that transfer market at its free-est and most open deters and confuses the way forward.  The purpose of standards is to eliminate confusion and choices which require understanding investment options and application consequences.  While standards have their downside, one of them is not those elements of marketplace choice.  
>> 
>> The more options existing the more confused.  Investment=legacy.  End-users must predict and interpret, making decisions that may come back to haunt. Developers delay their innovation in order to better understand whether they're investing in a blind technology. Transport providers must deploy and support more complicated configurations with their limited funds, inevitably satisfying some an thwarting others.
>> 
>> Would that the transfer market and all efforts to prolong IPv4 come to an end quickly IMO.
>> 
>> End of soapbox
>> 
>> bd
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> wrote:
>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 5:20 AM, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > On Feb 23, 2014, at 6:32 PM, David Farmer <farmer at umn.edu> wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >> I've been thinking about this maybe the restrictions for anti-flipping don't belong in section 8 at all.  Maybe they belong in section 4 as they are intended to protect the ARIN IPv4 free pool.
>> >
>> > I disagree. I don’t want to see flipping become a tool for speculation in the market post-exhaustion, any more than I want to see it become a tool for draining the free pool. In fact, I think that the former might be significantly more harmful than the latter at this point.
>> 
>> Owen -
>> 
>>   Could you elaborate your thoughts regarding the harm that might occur?
>> 
>>   I believe that folks understand risks associated with sudden/unexpected IPv4 free
>>   pool depletion, but you are suggesting that liquidity itself in the IPv4 transfer
>>   market is harmful.  As that is neither obvious nor aligned with most market theory,
>>   it would be best for you to elaborate your thoughts some on that aspect.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> /John
>> 
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> ARIN
>> 
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> 
> 
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> -- 
> -george william herbert
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